A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

[Mongrel]

Of course they have. Liberals blame all their problems on Liberals, as per the exact flow of conversation I laid out.

"Liberals" isn't a byword for leftists anymore though. It's a much narrower word now.

Lefists just just call themselves leftists now, or progressives.

Careful now!

[Brantly B.]

It really helps when you're a dick about it on top, kiddo.

[Mongrel]

Sorry, probably looks like I'm needling you harder about this than I mean to. Language changes. C'est la vie.

I'm honestly just surprised is all.

[Caithness]

What?

What the fuck are you then, an attack helicopter?

Of course they have. Liberals blame all their problems on Liberals, as per the exact flow of conversation I laid out.

But I still haven't gotten an answer as to what else anybody identifies as.

I'm Left, or Communist, or Socialist. Even the word Progressive feels a bit too weaksauce these days.

[KingRoyal]

Classical Liberalism is the belief in markets, personal civil liberties and The Law. Basically the system we live under, specifically the capitalism part. It's worth noting that both American Liberals and Conservatives fall under this category, with Conservatives favoring a strict hierarchy

Neoliberalism is an extension of these beliefs to one where the more services and property held in private hands, the better! This has led to the growth of public/private partnerships that vastly favor the private side of things.

American Liberals are a mixed bag, ranging from conservatives who don't exactly like all the racism/sexism of the GOP to people who think the current system can be reigned in while still keeping the Capital/Labor divide in place. Progressives slot into the latter category.

Leftists refers to a group of distinct yet similar ideological philosophies based around a critique of capitalism. The most popular categories for this one are Socialists, who want to restructure society so that property (means of productions) are held in kind by the laborers rather than in the interest of private capital. Communists want a stateless, classless society without hierarchical divisions where people's needs are met first before taking on labor, and Anarchists are another range of philosophies that agree on having no state and no hierarchies with property rights settled by mutual agreement.

In reality, most people's political philosophies are a grab bag and hard to uniquely pin down. There's also been a trend among online leftists to think of Liberals as the enemy because they can be stubborn in their conservativism, versus the actual right-wing who want to kill everyone.

[Mongrel]

Right. It's just that that centrism or stubbornness are increasing seen as actively causing harm through inaction against verifiable evils. "Liberals" are seen as a group tolerant of the intolerant for the sake of a distant or nostalgic ideology over any current reality. Also there's the position that Classical Liberalism isn't even as centrist as it was once believed, as opinion about free markets continues to shift.

The infuriating thing about inaction is that it paradoxically means that any possible return to a balanced society will require more and more extreme action in order to even be feasible.

I've said before that the way I look at it is that a return to balance will come, whether society decides responsibly, or if it is simply forced upon us by the fundamental laws of nature and mathematics. This includes the possibility of "balance" being forced upon in human society by our death as a species.

Every debt against reality will be paid. Eventually. And reality will take what is owed, in full, and with all due interest, whether this be in blood, or some even dearer currency.

So whether we decide to have a just society or an unjust one is up to us. But we will face the consequences of our choices either way.

[Büge]

Classical Liberalism is the belief in markets, personal civil liberties and The Law. Basically the system we live under, specifically the capitalism part. It's worth noting that both American Liberals and Conservatives fall under this category, with Conservatives favoring a strict hierarchy

Neoliberalism is an extension of these beliefs to one where the more services and property held in private hands, the better! This has led to the growth of public/private partnerships that vastly favor the private side of things.

"we need more women CEOs"

[Friday]

Thank you to those who broke down the original exchange. I understand it now. Appreciated. I think it's mostly on my end, but I do think the posting style and format lends itself very easily to confusion. A lot of it I think hinges on being familiar with the poster. JD's breakdown of their histories puts their posts into context. Because people post very frequently with sarcasm or dry sardonic style, it can be really hard when a complete stranger posts something like "Man, Nazis sure are bad" to know what the fuck they even mean by that.

As far as the liberal/commie/socialist/progressive stuff, I'm calling myself a prog now but I don't pretend to actually understand what any of those terms 100% mean.

[Thad]

(Mainly because the third guy is a relative rarity on the Right and it's a wonder he hasn't been declared a RINO and browbeaten into either silence or full-throated conformity yet. Giving a shit about your optics is specifically what the modern Right is trying to avoid having to ever do.)

Most of them still get performatively angry when you call them nazis or white supremacists.

Hell, the Proud Boys sue people for calling them white supremacists.

But I still haven't gotten an answer as to what else anybody identifies as.

People's Front of Judea.

Sorry, probably looks like I'm needling you harder about this than I mean to. Language changes. C'est la vie.

Also, words that are used in a certain way on leftist Twitter are not necessarily used the same way among the general public.

Thank you to those who broke down the original exchange. I understand it now. Appreciated. I think it's mostly on my end, but I do think the posting style and format lends itself very easily to confusion. A lot of it I think hinges on being familiar with the poster. JD's breakdown of their histories puts their posts into context. Because people post very frequently with sarcasm or dry sardonic style, it can be really hard when a complete stranger posts something like "Man, Nazis sure are bad" to know what the fuck they even mean by that.

It took me a couple readings but I got it, without needing to know anything about the posters.

I'll agree that Twitter as a format fucking blows, though. And question the wisdom in amplifying bad takes from nobodies.

[Mongrel]

Also, words that are used in a certain way on leftist Twitter are not necessarily used the same way among the general public.

Well, I genuinely can't speak to "leftist Twitter", but I've seen this usage from left-leaning people across a wide variety of common/popular internet sites. You've definitely noted the steady increase in strong left-wing tendencies from younger generations, so if you were a betting man where would you say the language is going to end up?

I suppose shit's in flux. Maybe the term 'liberal' will be reclaimed. Maybe it won't.

Maybe it'll continue on as it is now, being used in different ways by different tribes, but IMO that potential for confusion makes it rather useless in more generalized conversations, even if you can mostly tell by context which meaning is intended.

But more importantly - and as I already said - there's a fair few members right here on the forums who've used 'liberal' in a negative sense, and quite a few more who've expressed their disgust with the conventional American version of Liberalism.

I'll agree that Twitter as a format fucking blows, though.

No disagreement there. At least conversations on it don't read bottom-to-top anymore, fucking hell that was absurd.

And question the wisdom in amplifying bad takes from nobodies.

Nazis saying the quiet parts out loud seems fair game to me (if posted as a screenshot so as not to give anyone any clicks), but let's leave it at that.

[nosimpleway]

People's Front of Judea.

A comedy sketch lampooning how a group of left-leaning individuals inevitably shapes itself into a circular firing squad incapable of effecting any meaningful social change seems like an appropriate reference to make here, yeah.

(It was in a film published in 1979, the year Thatcher became PM. Assume I put the thinking emoji here, the forum software won't let me actually do it.)

[Upthorn]

I believe that the online left's current use of the word "liberal" is actually fairly similar to what you see the word meaning in every "liberal democratic" party anywhere in the world? Which is typically center-right, favoring preserving the current social structures and systems over anything else, would rather lose to Trump than win under Sanders.

[Thad]

Also, words that are used in a certain way on leftist Twitter are not necessarily used the same way among the general public.

Well, I genuinely can't speak to "leftist Twitter", but I've seen this usage from left-leaning people across a wide variety of common/popular internet sites. You've definitely noted the steady increase in strong left-wing tendencies from younger generations, so if you were a betting man where would you say the language is going to end up?

[mharr]

The term was further poisoned online by the libertarian effort to rebrand themselves as 'classical liberals'

[Mongrel]

[snarky frinkniac]

Your post is sandwiched between two others which gently speak about how or why 'liberal' is often not used in the way it was when you or I were young.

[Büge]

I said, watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical
Liberal, oh fanatical, criminal

[Mongrel]

Somehow the guy in the last tweet doing the Dreamworks smirk in his avatar makes it just that much funnier.

[Upthorn]

Oops. I accidentally found an important image to contribute to the "liberal" discussion. I'm sorry.

[Mongrel]

Did I just watch a guy die from Portnoy's Complaint?

[KingRoyal]

Here’s Why I’ll Be Keeping My Shoes on in Your Shoeless Home

The rage I feel at this column