Our Collapsing Civilization

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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Tue May 05, 2015 4:30 pm

The fucked-up pinkie finger is driving me crazy.
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Mothra
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mothra » Tue May 05, 2015 4:35 pm

Mothra wrote:Aaaand this was the winning picture. Not joking.

I cannot get past how shitty this drawing is on every level.

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Joxam
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Joxam » Tue May 05, 2015 5:36 pm

and Mongrel doesn't draw because he doesn't think he's good enough at it...
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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Tue May 05, 2015 9:06 pm

Funny you should say that.

There's a thread started elsewhere on the boards, just a couple of days ago...
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Thad
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Thad » Wed May 06, 2015 2:29 am

Brentai wrote:The real question is, how do you convince people to accept the responsibilities that go hand-in-hand with their rights when they're clearly not inclined to?


Best I can come up with is, find a way to convince them that the Other they're afraid of isn't so damn different from themselves. Hollywood and the news media have a tremendous amount of power there. There's no substitute for meeting somebody face-to-face and having an honest conversation, but there are some places where you're just not going to find a lot of people who belong to certain demographics. (Whereas anywhere in America you've probably met people who are black, people who are from whatever the nearest Latin American country or territory is, and, at this point, people who are openly gay.)

And I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, hey, you know, this thing you're doing, yeah it offends terrorist assholes, but you know, it offends people who are perfectly decent too, and while their beliefs may seem strange or silly to you, you've probably got your own share of deeply-held beliefs that would sound strange or silly to somebody else who grew up in a different tradition, and maybe you could try finding something to do that's offensive to terrorists but not offensive to a huge cross-section of the world's population.

Some people are never going to be convinced. Geller and her buddies are obviously on that list. But I'm optimistic enough to think that most people are going to be receptive to at least discussing the subject.

I was downtown once with some coworkers, and one of them -- who was a nice and unassuming guy otherwise -- made a remark that he was uncomfortable with the presence of a mosque there. I told him that it had been there for decades, that I'd gone to preschool at the church right nextdoor, and that I'd often gone to the middle-eastern restaurant and market adjacent to the mosque and have had nothing but positive experiences with the people working there.

It's a weird fucking thing, having someone you know and like suddenly and unexpectedly say something irrationally xenophobic just out of the blue like that. I guess the best way to respond is by telling them that "those people" really aren't so different from you or me. And they make good falafels.

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Classic
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Classic » Wed May 06, 2015 3:00 pm

W**mart is apparently running ads about how they are going to "invest in their people". Talking about how much they've set aside for raises and such.

Felt exciting enough to share.

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François
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby François » Wed May 06, 2015 7:20 pm

"Voyez toute la brioche que l'on vous prépare!", dit Marie-Antoinette au peuple, tout sourire, alors qu'on la mène à l'échafaud.

(haha who am i kidding, walmart isn't going anywhere)

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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Thad » Thu May 07, 2015 1:02 am

Tom Tomorrow has a good piece reflecting on the Charlie Hebdo massacre, linking Michael Moynihan's piece America’s Literary Elite Takes a Bold Stand Against Dead Journalists. Both make the point, rather convincingly, that those of us -- and that's "us", including me -- who saw the Hebdo cartoons out-of-context and went with our gut reaction that wow, that's really crude and racist, should really have considered that maybe there was something lost in the translation. The Charlie Hebdo cartoons were, in fact, overwhelmingly mocking the offensive viewpoints they depicted, not espousing them. (I've drawn the parallel before to the 2008 New Yorker cover that depicted the Obamas as terrorists and how it was instantly self-evident to me that the cover was mocking that ridiculous notion, not pushing it, and I was baffled that anyone could look at it and think otherwise. It appears that I made much that same mistake about the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. My anecdotal knowledge of widespread anti-Muslim sentiment in France is no excuse -- it's me letting a stereotype inform my view of people I never met and whose work I was unfamiliar with, and I should know better.)

Tom concludes:

As for Pamela Geller, that icon of rational thought who once advanced the theory — in all seriousness — that Obama’s real father was Malcom X: yes, I support her right to free speech, and her right to exercise it without threat of injury. But don’t conflate Charlie Hebdo and Geller — the former satirizes eliminationist rhetoric, however imperfectly, while the latter champions it. As Jeet Heer writes in a typically insightful essay, it is a clarifying distinction.

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Büge
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Büge » Thu May 07, 2015 7:36 am


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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Cait » Thu May 07, 2015 8:31 am

(There’s also a tendency to dismiss the Hebdo cartoonists by pointing to objectionable things their government has done in the wake of their massacre. I’d hope the logical fallacy of that critique is self-evident.)

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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Thad » Thu May 07, 2015 12:23 pm

Gaiman links a Seattle Globalist article called The vanishing of Molly Norris, referring to the political cartoonist who changed her name and went into hiding after Anwar al-Awlaki put her on the same death list as the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists who would later be murdered.

Gaiman also links the cartoon that got her on the death list, which introduced Everybody Draw Mohammed Day. It's glib, sure, and I can't say as I agree with the sentiment, but it's also pretty damn tame. And she adds in a later cartoon that she never seriously meant for Everybody Draw Mohammed Day to become a real thing. (Somehow I get the impression that if Norris and Geller sat down together they would not have much to talk about.)

In a followup post, Gaiman responds to a response to his post. He acknowledges that perfectly reasonable people may find the cartoon offensive (and it's no longer displayed inline in his original post, just linked at the bottom) but that there's a pretty big difference between criticism and the Assassin's Veto.

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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Sat May 09, 2015 10:36 pm

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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Sun May 31, 2015 12:01 am

And from Wisconsin, more Good Ideas.
http://www.startribune.com/uw-budget-cut-tuition-freeze-up-for-vote/305434511/

MADISON, Wis. — The Legislature's budget-writing committee voted Friday to cut the University of Wisconsin's budget by $250 million and eliminate tenure protections for faculty from state law — moves derided by Democrats who argued the changes would hurt both higher education and the state's economy.

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malikial
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby malikial » Sun May 31, 2015 11:21 am

I am finding it harder and harder to not just say fuck it and move.

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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Sun May 31, 2015 12:03 pm

Man... even if you're just being grimly sardonic, that's a pretty hefty statement coming from someone with hometown ties as strong as you and your brother have.
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TedBelmont
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby TedBelmont » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:26 am

THIS POST REMOVED FOR INSUFFICIENT CONTEXT

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Joxam
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Joxam » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:24 pm

Mongrel wrote:coming from someone with hometown ties as strong as you and your brother have.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I've wanted to get out of this blasted hellscape since as long as I can remember. You have to remember that we moved here in the third grade. Which was a long time ago, but it was still when we were old enough to be considered outsiders by our tribe AND too native for the white people. Its great when pretty much the only people that don't think you're an outsider in a small town are your immediate family. So great. If we hadn't been taking care of our dying mom for years I don't think we'd still be here.
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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:35 pm

Huh... well why not then? If you don't mind the question?
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Mothra
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mothra » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:35 pm

Yeah, sounds like moving is definitely a pretty good option.

You two ever think of where you'd want to go?

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Mongrel
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Re: Our Collapsing Civilization

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:45 pm

Also, it sounds INCREDIBLY shitty that your neighbours still think of you as outsiders even though you've lived there since you were three and are from the same ethnic group. Like that is shitty treatment even when you discount tribal connections.

It also kind of goes against how accepting native tribes generally were historically. Generally.
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