Misogyny Kills

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Grath
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Grath » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:50 am

Disposable Ninja wrote:Holy pineapple you people are pieces of coconut. I was trying to be a pleasant little boy here, too. Nice and respectful, even.

Disposable Ninja wrote:Is it women's fault they're being harassed in STEM fields because their weak fragile emotions can't handle being harassed?

Yeaaaaaah. We're the pieces of shit.

Disposable Ninja wrote:It's also a very well known fact that if you fail to commit suicide you are still alive. It's pretty easy to attempt more often when you get multiple tries.

Both my best friend and his sister have had problems with depression. Thankfully, his depression has never yet gotten bad enough to actually attempt suicide but his suicide plan was to use multiple methods of suicide (including but not limited to gunshot to the head) to guarantee no chance of survival. His sister's attempt was an overdose of pills, which resulted in a trip to the hospital but no lasting damage that I'm aware of (unless bad taste in boyfriends is a side effect of an overdose of whatever she took).

Also, multiple tries at suicide has been to a decent extent debunked by the British Coal Gas story; there is a nontrivial amount of evidence showing that the harder it is to impulsively commit suicide, the fewer people do. Only 13% of nearly-fatal suicide attempts out of 153 survivors ages 13-35 were planned more than 8 hours in advance, with 70% only taking an hour between deciding to commit suicide and attempting to do so. Out of the 515 people who were thwarted from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge between 1937 and 1971, only 6% ended up committing suicide. Two different survivors of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge had the same thought after jumping: That they didn't actually want to die, but it was too late.

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zaratustra
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby zaratustra » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:35 am

Disposable Ninja wrote:Is the harassment women receive in male-dominated industries sexism, or is it that many women just aren't emotionally equipped to function in an all-male environment?


you know, every single reply I write here is an immense effort of civil conditioning. 33 years of parental, educational and societal training are going into making me actually construct arguments for you to consider and not just tell you you're an idiot and need to shut up.

Well, I give up.

You're an idiot and you need to shut up, for your own sake and everyone else's.

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Disposable Ninja
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Disposable Ninja » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:06 pm

Thad wrote:DN: That's exactly the kind of belligerent vomit that I never want to see, which already has me ignoring one thread and which is about to get me to ignore a second. Which is a real pity because I feel like I've got a few things to say about the parties in this particular example.


I'm sorry, I got kind of pissed off. Okay, extremely pissed off. I'm not good at talking, and I have an extremely hard time opening myself up to other people just to say anything. I tried to have a good faith discussion and was immediately met with "Are you fucking kidding me?" And, simply put, it's easier to meet vitriol with harsher vitriol.

zaratustra wrote:
Disposable Ninja wrote:Is the harassment women receive in male-dominated industries sexism, or is it that many women just aren't emotionally equipped to function in an all-male environment?


You're an idiot and you need to shut up, for your own sake and everyone else's.


Yeah, okay, that came out weird.

I'm not saying women are too soft and can't function in a male-dominated community or anything like that. I'll grant you: it does look a lot like I said that. Very deceptive wording.

...

Okay, so I essentially did say something horrible and gross, but it's not what I meant.

What I meant was more along the lines of: is what women experience in male-dominated communities sexism, or did the women merely enter into a foreign culture without an understanding of how that culture operates? And, likewise, was the culture not equipped to handle a foreign perspective? Is it a combination of all three? And do men entering into female-dominated cultures face similar issues?

And I'm posing these thoughts as questions not because I'm trying to lead with loaded questions. I'm asking these questions because we're discussing invisible concepts that affect millions of people, and I don't believe a one-size-fits-all solution is the correct way to go about it.
For the White Witch!

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Büge
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Büge » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:19 pm


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nosimpleway
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby nosimpleway » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:52 pm

Disposable Ninja wrote:What I meant was more along the lines of: is what women experience in male-dominated communities sexism, or did the women merely enter into a foreign culture without an understanding of how that culture operates? And, likewise, was the culture not equipped to handle a foreign perspective?

As a professional cook who has actually heard a kitchen manager say "Women are too emotional to work in a kitchen, they can't handle it", no. It's just sexism.

Disposable Ninja wrote:And do men entering into female-dominated cultures face similar issues?

As a cook who up until last week was working as the only male employee out of up to two dozen at his workplace, also no.

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Disposable Ninja
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Disposable Ninja » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:41 pm

nosimpleway wrote:
Disposable Ninja wrote:What I meant was more along the lines of: is what women experience in male-dominated communities sexism, or did the women merely enter into a foreign culture without an understanding of how that culture operates? And, likewise, was the culture not equipped to handle a foreign perspective?

As a professional cook who has actually heard a kitchen manager say "Women are too emotional to work in a kitchen, they can't handle it", no. It's just sexism.


Well, I mean, you kind of cut the part where I said it might be a mixture of all three. And given that I said it might be all three combined, it could also just as easily be any one factor alone -- including, yes, outright sexism. Other, unthought of factors may be at work as well.

nosimpleway wrote:
Disposable Ninja wrote:And do men entering into female-dominated cultures face similar issues?

As a cook who up until last week was working as the only male employee out of up to two dozen at his workplace, also no.


I don't mean to be patronizing, but: are you sure about that? As I mentioned before, I do feel men are trained and expected to view their own problems as less important. And then of course there's the aforementioned differences in male-dominated sub-cultures and female-dominated subcultures -- what may seem innocuous to you may not be so innocent to your coworkers.

Of course, they may not treat you any differently. That possibility certainly shouldn't be discounted.

Different social environments, and the people participating within it, breed unique atmospheres of hostility or acceptance. What may be true for one group may not be quite so true for another. Singular, broad-stroke solutions are only going to be a viable solution for a selection of the population -- not to every one.
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François
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby François » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:55 pm

Hmm, out of curiosity, what specific "singular, broad-stroke solutions" are you talking about (condemning?) here?

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Mongrel
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Mongrel » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:04 pm

Goddammit I am trying so hard not to make all the incredibly obvious puns.
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Grath
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Grath » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:27 pm

Disposable Ninja wrote:
nosimpleway wrote:
Disposable Ninja wrote:And do men entering into female-dominated cultures face similar issues?

As a cook who up until last week was working as the only male employee out of up to two dozen at his workplace, also no.


I don't mean to be patronizing, but: are you sure about that? As I mentioned before, I do feel men are trained and expected to view their own problems as less important. And then of course there's the aforementioned differences in male-dominated sub-cultures and female-dominated subcultures -- what may seem innocuous to you may not be so innocent to your coworkers.

Of course, they may not treat you any differently. That possibility certainly shouldn't be discounted.

Different social environments, and the people participating within it, breed unique atmospheres of hostility or acceptance. What may be true for one group may not be quite so true for another. Singular, broad-stroke solutions are only going to be a viable solution for a selection of the population -- not to every one.

Did you just call R^2 a House Lychee with internalized misandry? 'cause that sounds like what you just did.

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Sharkey
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Sharkey » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:15 pm

Just checking in. Has he got to the fallacy of relative privation yet? I've almost got Bingo.
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patito
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby patito » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:27 pm

Let's start with a simple concept DN, you do know that women on average get paid less than men for exactly the same kind of work, minorities also get paid less and then minority women get paid way less than anybody. Why do you suppose this happens?

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Joxam
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Joxam » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:36 pm

I'm putting money on him arguing that its the fields they work in and that there are actually fields where women make more then men!!!! (completely missing the point that if this is true that must mean that in the fields that women don't get paid more then men in they must actually be being paid EVEN less to make up for the fields they're making more in)
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Lyrai » Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:41 pm

There's a few massaged studies that try to claim the pay gap has "all but vanished" by using cherry-picked statistics involving job type, certain benefits taken, and generally does its best to present a Fox News Fair & Balanced view (Okay, a bit extreme) that GrundleGorbachev likes to tote around, and I fully expect one or more of those studies to be immediately throw up by DeNi.

http://www.topmanagementdegrees.com/wom ... make-less/ This is one of them.

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Brentai
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Brentai » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:01 pm

Why don't you let the poor guy answer instead of pre-emptively telling him why he's wrong?

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Lyrai
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Lyrai » Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:08 pm

The reason I have knowledge of those articles is because I've run into the same argument with the same links verbatim several times. I'm interested in new data, new arguments, and new points. Not the same things over and over.

I'm not telling him he's wrong (yet.) I'm telling him, "Most people with your beliefs, arguing this subject, use these arguments. We've heard them already, and are preemptively prepared to scuttle them. Use fresh ones."

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kashan
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby kashan » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:42 pm

On the question of men entering a female dominated field, as a guy in nursing my experience was that I was immediately given more authority and assumed to be more competent than the often equally qualified and usually more experienced women around me. Also statistically while men are a small percentage of nurses, they are disproportionately represented in head nursing positions and advanced nursing positions. So what I'm saying is when a man enters a female dominated environment they are treated differently, because they're treated better.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby nosimpleway » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:25 pm

Well okay sure but have you considered that your personal experiences are wrong

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Classic
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Classic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:12 pm

nosimpleway wrote:Well okay sure but have you considered that your personal experiences are wrong

To be fair, if we replace wrong with uncommon or rare that's a reasonable assertion. The plural of anecdotes is not data after all (though anecdotes can be data under the right circumstances but this isn't an important digression).
kashan wrote:Also statistically while men are a small percentage of nurses, they are disproportionately represented in head nursing positions and advanced nursing positions.
But this bit should be pretty convincing as evidence that DNi's consideration of culture differences is negligible.

Lyrai wrote:There's a few massaged studies that try to claim the pay gap has "all but vanished" by using cherry-picked statistics involving job type, certain benefits taken, and generally does its best to present a Fox News Fair & Balanced view (Okay, a bit extreme) that GrundleGorbachev likes to tote around, and I fully expect one or more of those studies to be immediately throw up by DeNi.

http://www.topmanagementdegrees.com/wom ... make-less/ This is one of them.


Ah, that one.
It annoys me because it comes very close to suggesting that we should be pleased and stop at women arbitrarily making 1/20th less than men for the same work. It also wants to ignore sexism in STEM, past and present, and the general devaluing of "women's work". Both work "traditionally" done by women and work that women do in general.
But the part that really annoys me is that I read that one or something similar to it a while back and was made happy by the idea that maybe things were improving more rapidly than I had thought. The article then used that to try and slip the bullshit above past me and I got angry.

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Romosome
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Romosome » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:37 pm

Is what women experience in male-dominated communities sexism, or did the women merely enter into a foreign culture without an understanding of how that culture operates? And, likewise, was the culture not equipped to handle a foreign perspective?


All three options you mentioned there are the same thing. Yes, women in the workforce often enter into a foreign culture without an understanding of how that culture operates. The problem is that culture excludes and objectifies them, and then resents them for intruding on it if they ask for change or respect.

Culture is not equipped to handle a foreign perspective. Just as you said. That's the entire problem. The culture has to be changed in order to handle new perspectives.

Put another way, you can have an entire office of guys who don't think they're sexist creating a really sexist culture. Just like you can have an entire corporation of everyday joes who think they're decent guys just doing their job creating big problems for other people. Singling any of those people out individually and going HEY you fucking BIGOT probably will be met with dumbfounded shock.


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