Misogyny Kills

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Friday
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Friday » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:55 pm

an individual has sex with their wife while she is unconscious — or he, the only other way around, if that's possible


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Classic
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Classic » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:13 pm

Wait... did that asshole just try and get a dig in against same-sex marriages? "the only other way around"?


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beatbandito
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby beatbandito » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:57 pm

This would be less terrible if we just forcibly sterilized anyone who had six kids.
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Mothra
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Mothra » Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:38 am

Classic wrote:Wait... did that asshole just try and get a dig in against same-sex marriages? "the only other way around"?

I read that as, "if it's possible for the wife to sleep-rape the man if he's not hard."

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beatbandito
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby beatbandito » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:47 pm



holy shit to the nth degree
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Friday
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Friday » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:32 pm

"Noobs?"

"Short for Nubians."

"What's a Nubian?"
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TedBelmont
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby TedBelmont » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:42 pm

Putting this here, because it's bigger than GoombaGlomp:

Randi Harper, creater of the GG Auto Blocker, has formed the Online Abuse Prevention Initiative(OAPI), a non-profit for assessing, reducing, and mitigating online harassment and abuse.

I think, with twitter and other companies either being ineffective at best(and disinterested at worst) in combating this kind of stuff, independent third parties are going to be key in this fight. Harper created the ggautoblocker, which, for me at least, has been invaluable in keeping 99% of the nonsense out of my notifications.

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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Mongrel » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:31 am

Google has a nice little doodle for international women's day.

I am going to say one horrendously misogynist thing though: Dear Google. If you have a collage with fifteen different images celebrating women, it's okay to have a single, token, maternal image in there somewhere. Really. It's fine.
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby TedBelmont » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:55 pm

Putting this here for lack of a better place; if anyone feels it would fit better elsewhere please feel free to move it.×

Chris Sims on being part of the problem.

This goes back to something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I wasn't aware of Chris or his work back then, but if I had been, I likely would have joined in on the harassment, or at the very least found it amusing. It's one of the reasons I'm so strongly against GG; it wasn't that long ago that I would have found myself on the opposite side, and thinking I was in the right for it.

But I am not the person I was in my teens, or even in my twenties. I've grown, I've changed, and I've learned. It wasn't always easy, and Lord knows I made plenty of mistakes along the way, but I can honestly and earnestly say I am a better person today than I was then. Even now, I have to check myself when I go to far in criticizing someone's words or actions, and find myself falling into attacking the person themselves.

So yeah, I can definitely relate to what Chris is saying here. It would have been easy to just brush it off as the indiscretions of youth, but he didn't, he owned up to it, and I respect him for that. I also respect anyone who can't forgive him; the damage he did and the damage he enabled can never be undone. And I understand it's a hell of a lot easier for someone like me to forgive him than it might be for someone who is more likely to be the target of harassment than the one perpetrating it. But I do believe people can change, and for what it's worth, I do believe Chris Sims has changed.

×This is tangentially related to GympieGympie, as it was GGers who dragged this up in an attempt to discredit Sims and, by association, ComicsAlliance, whom they despise. Personally I think this is bigger than GG.

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Thad
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Thad » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:36 pm

This is the first I've heard of this; I haven't gone back and looked at the specific things Sims wrote and I'm probably not going to. I don't know D'Orazio's work very well; I have some criticisms of her conduct that I think are legitimate (she's been pretty fucking rude to Johanna Draper-Carlson for reasons that seem completely unprovoked based on my admittedly outsider perspective), but I also have a great deal of respect both for the sheer amount of shit she had to deal with and her candor in telling her story.

(By way of explanation: D'Orazio was, for awhile, best known for her Occasional Superheroine blog, where she discussed, in detail, the sexual harassment she went through when she was working at DC. She's removed those posts from her blog but collected them as a free PDF, titled Memoirs of an Occasional Superheroine.)

She's been through more shit than anybody should have to. I don't know what Sims, in particular, said or did, but I'm confident in saying that she had enough shit to deal with, without him making it worse.

It also bears noting that it's a lot different for somebody with a huge fan following to criticize somebody on the Internet than for some random unknown to do it. When, say, Adam Baldwin sets his sights on somebody, it turns that person into a huge target for harassment. With great power, and all that.

ETA: Sims's comments on privilege bear particular consideration. "I shouldn't have to treat anybody differently from anybody else" sounds perfectly rational, and Lord knows I've said it myself in the past. But something that would just be good-natured shit-talk if it were directed at you, and which you'd shrug off with a sarcastic rejoinder and then forget about, isn't necessarily going to have that same effect on somebody else. And that doesn't mean that other person is defective in some way, just that they're coming from someplace else.

For starters, if a woman/minority/QUILTBAG has a lower threshold for Internet snark than you do, it's probably because she's dealing with a lot more of it than you are just by virtue of being a woman/minority/QUILTBAG on the Internet. As Sharkey pointed out over in the other thread, being a female games journalist pretty much means starting off your day with an inbox full of dick pics and rape threats. And as Sims notes, that's also true in comics and pretty much any high-visibility site.

And no, that's not my fault, or Chris Sims's, or anybody else's but the people sending the dick pics and the rape threats. But it's something that straight white cis males don't think about until somebody spells it out for them, because it's just not part of most of our day-to-day existence.

Which isn't to say that straight white cis males can't be bullied, harassed, threatened, doxxed, etc. Of course we can. But it's not a given for us in the way that it is for people outside that demographic.

Of course, the best solution is to try not to be an asshole to ANYBODY. In that sense, I suppose it IS accurate to say you shouldn't have to treat anybody differently from anybody else. But one person's threshold for being an asshole isn't the same as everybody else's, and it's entirely possible to be an asshole through ignorance instead of intent.

There have been times when I've looked back at my old posts and thought "Okay, that's pretty good." And there have been times when I've looked back at my old posts, winced, and thought "Jesus Christ, where the fuck did THAT come from?" I was really pretty horrible to Friday, in particular, for reasons that I can't remember or even guess at, looking back, and defended it with some totally misguided "But it's okay when X does it to Y!" comparisons. I like to think I've learned better.

Remember that Red vs. Blue to the effect of "Remember how stupid you were 10 years ago? Guess what? You're still that stupid. You just won't realize it for 10 more years."? Yeah, I think it's safe to say that I'm as embarrassed by Twentysomething Thad as he was by Teenage Thad. And I'm sure I'm saying all sorts of new stupid shit that Fortysomething Thad is going to be looking at sideways someday.

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Disposable Ninja
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Disposable Ninja » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:29 pm

TedBelmont wrote:it wasn't that long ago that I would have found myself on the opposite side, and thinking I was in the right for it.


And for me, it wasn't that long ago that I would have found myself on your side, thinking I was right. Here's the rub: my beliefs haven't, honestly, changed.

I mean, I'm still vehemently pro-choice. I think there should be free prenatal care for women, subsidized daycares for single mothers. Birth control and Hormone Replacement Therapy should be freely available to those who need it. I think Gay Marriage is and should be no less legitimate than straight marriages. Honestly, I think polyamorous relationships should be legitimized as well.

It's just, well, I don't think feminism necessarily has the right answers. For example: I think most feminists have confused respect with indifference. I think we've been trained to think of men's problems as less important than women's. I think men have been trained to think of their problems as unimportant. To ignore our problems. To ignore men.

The vast majority of homeless are men. The vast majority of suicides are men. An average of 100 boys die every year in the U.S. due to botched, completely unnecessary circumcisions.

Do women get more harassment than men because people hate women, or do men merely get less harassment because people just don't care enough to bother? Or are men equally likely to be harassed, and we just aren't trained to see or believe that that harassment could be as serious as the harassment women face? Is the harassment women receive in male-dominated industries sexism, or is it that many women just aren't emotionally equipped to function in an all-male environment? Likewise, are most men equipped to function in a female-dominated industry?

I don't know. And I don't think anyone really does.
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Grath » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:52 pm

Disposable Ninja wrote:
TedBelmont wrote:it wasn't that long ago that I would have found myself on the opposite side, and thinking I was in the right for it.


And for me, it wasn't that long ago that I would have found myself on your side, thinking I was right. Here's the rub: my beliefs haven't, honestly, changed.

I mean, I'm still vehemently pro-choice. I think there should be free prenatal care for women, subsidized daycares for single mothers. Birth control and Hormone Replacement Therapy should be freely available to those who need it. I think Gay Marriage is and should be no less legitimate than straight marriages. Honestly, I think polyamorous relationships should be legitimized as well.

It's just, well, I don't think feminism necessarily has the right answers. For example: I think most feminists have confused respect with indifference. I think we've been trained to think of men's problems as less important than women's. I think men have been trained to think of their problems as unimportant. To ignore our problems. To ignore men.

The vast majority of homeless are men. The vast majority of suicides are men. An average of 100 boys die every year in the U.S. due to botched, completely unnecessary circumcisions.

Do women get more harassment than men because people hate women, or do men merely get less harassment because people just don't care enough to bother? Or are men equally likely to be harassed, and we just aren't trained to see or believe that that harassment could be as serious as the harassment women face? Is the harassment women receive in male-dominated industries sexism, or is it that many women just aren't emotionally equipped to function in an all-male environment? Likewise, are most men equipped to function in a female-dominated industry?

I don't know. And I don't think anyone really does.

Are you fucking kidding me?

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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Lyrai » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:59 pm

Disposable Ninja wrote:Image


We know a lot of the answers, it's just the gruel you willingly eat for the easy answer keeps telling you this because it's easier to accept that you're not the problem, you're the issue, rather than understand the insane complexties of the whole picture, and understand you inadvertently caused the problem. It's easier to be the victim than accept blame.

The suicides thing is probably the most hilarious attempt of you to claim sexism, because it's by now a very well known fact that while men die more, women attempt more. It's just the methods used by women are generally more recoverable and less immediate (Overdosing, Car in a garage, etc) while men tend to go out in ways that you can't recover from, or are very immediate (Jumping, eating a gun, etc)

There are deep, complex problems rooted in the norms and mores we, as a society, have crafted that are starting to rear their ugly head as we move into more enlightened times. Men are pressed into the role of the stoic pillar of the family, never crying, never asking for help, never expressing themselves. Women are pressed into being weaklings, never doing trhings for themselves, not allowed into certain fields. But there's still a few cavemen who stubbornly refuse to accept that there's not a simple answer, that a deep examination of the self and the community is needed - with the realization that the self in question may have, inadvertently, caused some of it.

It's far, far easier to just say "Well they caused it" than to accept maybe some of the drek you're being spoonfed by whatever person got into your brain first with a few key phrases and doctored statistics are just that - doctored statistics and being told what you want to hear, because it means you're absolved of all blame.

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I knew I saved this emoticon for a reason

Postby Büge » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:03 pm

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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Mongrel » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:06 pm

FYI, the suicide thing is bullshit. Men have a higher rate of COMPLETED suicides (some of this being attributable to methods chosen - for instance, firearms), but the rate of attempts is equal between genders or possibly even slightly tilted towards women depending on the dataset you look at.

There's discussion material in why there are differences in completion rates, but a throwaway statement like "men have a higher rate of suicide than women" is ignorant and misleading at best.
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Classic » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:09 pm

A few things on this guy:
Disposable Ninja wrote:Do women get more harassment than men because people hate women, or do men merely get less harassment because people just don't care enough to bother?

First, what would be the difference? If it has all of the characteristics of "hate" and neither interpretation is more valid (one is, but we'll get to that) then why not let it be an "axiom of choice"?
Second, when you choose the word "hate" are you choosing it as a technical term? Or are you using it in a layman's context to complain about it later, much like people like to complain about how everyone is "racist" or how "evolution is just a theory". I mean, is the consistent devaluing of women's work a symptom of "hate" to you?

You're asking a lot of relevant questions. Male disposability is a problem. But it's not an argument against feminism. Not the least of which is because "feminism" is not a monolith. Further the MRM has its own, exciting problems.

And people have been doing studies on harassment.
Lots of studies. Here's two.

Bottom lining those reports:
It's either slightly less prevalent but "more severe" for women, or its both more severe and more prevalent.

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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Disposable Ninja » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:18 pm

Holy fuck you people are pieces of shit. I was trying to be a pleasant little boy here, too. Nice and respectful, even.

Lyrai wrote:It's easier to be the victim than accept blame.


Oh, wow. You have zero self-awareness.

Lyrai wrote:The suicides thing is probably the most hilarious attempt of you to claim sexism, because it's by now a very well known fact that while men die more, women attempt more. It's just the methods used by women are generally more recoverable and less immediate (Overdosing, Car in a garage, etc) while men tend to go out in ways that you can't recover from, or are very immediate (Jumping, eating a gun, etc)


It's also a very well known fact that if you fail to commit suicide you are still alive. It's pretty easy to attempt more often when you get multiple tries.

Lyrai wrote:There are deep, complex problems rooted in the norms and mores we, as a society, have crafted that are starting to rear their ugly head as we move into more enlightened times. Men are pressed into the role of the stoic pillar of the family, never crying, never asking for help, never expressing themselves. Women are pressed into being weaklings, never doing trhings for themselves, not allowed into certain fields. But there's still a few cavemen who stubbornly refuse to accept that there's not a simple answer, that a deep examination of the self and the community is needed - with the realization that the self in question may have, inadvertently, caused some of it.

It's far, far easier to just say "Well they caused it" than to accept maybe some of the drek you're being spoonfed by whatever person got into your brain first with a few key phrases and doctored statistics are just that - doctored statistics and being told what you want to hear, because it means you're absolved of all blame.


You... are a fucking idiot. And I'm going to tell your dumb ass why you're dumb:

I agree with you you piece of shit.

Well, mostly.

You keep jumping to these insane conclusions about me, that I want to maintain the status quo or that I want to be absolved of blame. You're too far up on your god damned high horse that you can't see that you and I want many of the same things, we just don't agree on how to get there.

Fuck's sake.
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Thad
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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Thad » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:54 pm

So's I'm being equal opportunity here:

Lyrai: That's what I'm talking about. That was a good, logically-argued point-by-point rebuttal, and I learned a couple things reading it. This is the kind of thing I've been trying to encourage and I really appreciate it.

Could have maybe done without the "derp" image but okay that's a minor complaint.

DN: That's exactly the kind of belligerent vomit that I never want to see, which already has me ignoring one thread and which is about to get me to ignore a second. Which is a real pity because I feel like I've got a few things to say about the parties in this particular example.

It may be Completely Acceptable by the very low standards now in place for this board. But it will never be Completely Acceptable in my heart.

Suggest that everyone ignore DN when he gets like this. But I'm probably not going to stick around and see what happens. I'll be over there in the rest of the Politics threads. Until this crap spills over into them too.

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Re: Misogyny Kills

Postby Classic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:08 am

DN is repeating stuff that got debunked in articles that I was pretty sure got passed around in this knitting circle. But this is exactly the kind of thing that's tedious to look up and very prone to an attribution memory error.

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