Rooty-tooty point and shootys

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TA
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby TA » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:11 am

They've aptly demonstrated they need neither justification nor excuse. If you don't give them one, they'll make one up and do what they were gonna do anyway.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Hardly Ideal » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:12 am

This needs a big [citation needed] sticker, but I heard something about how around the same time Tamir Rice was shot for playing with an airsoft gun, there was some white teen in Cow Fart, Alabama who would regularly wander up and down the street with a shotgun, just to prove that he had the right. The worst he ever got was a stern talking to by a police officer.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:29 pm

TA wrote:They've aptly demonstrated they need neither justification nor excuse. If you don't give them one, they'll make one up and do what they were gonna do anyway.

This.

If minorities do absolutely everything an officer tells them to do, get killed anyway, and their murderer walks scott free in spite of ironclad evidence, then "Just do whatever the police tell you" does not appear to be a working strategy for not getting killed.

On further reflection, the main reason this may be the way things have to go (again I'm not 100% convinced, I'm just leaning this way) is not because we need an actual race war to break out, but because widespread arming of minorities may be the only way of directly exposing the massive hypocrisy baked into the current system. It's the only way to get those in power to talk seriously about gun ownership, deescalation, or gun control.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Brentai » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:55 pm

The simple fact of the matter is you can die slowly doing nothing or die quickly making a point.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Büge wrote:
Mongrel wrote:I mean, the interpretation that citizens have the right to be armed that they may protect themselves from potentially tyrannical government is the very argument that gun owners use to support second amendment rights. And people being gunned down with impunity by agents of their own government seems pretty fucking tyrannical to me.


Except it's not just government. It's baked into White Culture in America: in history, in media, in institution. A non-white person with a weapon is automatically a criminal, or at least highly suspect. There was no outrage from the usual quarter of Second Amendment advocates after the police shooting of Philando Castile, even though he did exactly what they always say he should do. At no point during the confrontation did he do anything threatening, but he still got shot. To the NRA fanatics, him getting shot is things working as intended.

Don't get me wrong: the murderer in question should be in jail because Castile wouldn't have mentioned the gun if he was going to use it illegally. He did "I have to inform you that I am concealed carrying" but did so while still reaching for his pockets. The fully "correct" course of action is to inform, while keeping your hands on the wheel, and ask the police officer what they would like you to do. Because then it maintains the "you have power over me" dynamic that gets interrupted when they aren't the only armed person in the situation.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:48 pm

Grath wrote:He did "I have to inform you that I am concealed carrying" but did so while still reaching for his pockets.


Not to get caught up on a single point (lol j/k that's all I do) but no one's saying that's what happened and it's a dangerous middle ground to be spreading.

The girlfriend's claim was that after the first request that he stop reaching for it, Castile did, and was returning his hands to the wheel. The officer said Castile's hand was against the gun.

Continuing to reach for the license and the officer getting concerned is a totally reasonable middle ground that they both made an unfortunate mistake in the moment that turned out much worse for Castile than the officer.

The real case is that either Castile felt the need to inform the officer he had a gun and then pull it out, or acted competently in the situation and it made no difference for him. Don't make the officer's claim more reasonable for him.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:33 pm

beatbandito wrote:
Grath wrote:He did "I have to inform you that I am concealed carrying" but did so while still reaching for his pockets.


Not to get caught up on a single point (lol j/k that's all I do) but no one's saying that's what happened and it's a dangerous middle ground to be spreading.

The girlfriend's claim was that after the first request that he stop reaching for it, Castile did, and was returning his hands to the wheel. The officer said Castile's hand was against the gun.

Continuing to reach for the license and the officer getting concerned is a totally reasonable middle ground that they both made an unfortunate mistake in the moment that turned out much worse for Castile than the officer.

The real case is that either Castile felt the need to inform the officer he had a gun and then pull it out, or acted competently in the situation and it made no difference for him. Don't make the officer's claim more reasonable for him.


Ah, I had heard that it was that he kept reaching for his wallet. Whoops.

(Also apparently Minnesota doesn't require you to inform the cop that you're armed, so if his gun was properly concealed one of the suggested methods is "just hand the cop your concealed carry permit along with your license" but I think that's something you can only get away with if you're white.)

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:35 am

Grath wrote:The suggested methods is "just hand the cop your concealed carry permit along with your license" but I think that's something you can only get away with if you're white.

HE'S GOT A PICTURE OF A GUN!

Anyway the point of the second amendment is for the people to be able to protect themselves from an oppressive regime, so yeah black people should be arming themselves.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Joxam » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:55 am

To be clear, NO THEY FUCKING SHOULDN'T.

You guys are acting like we live in some magic land where unicorns are real and dreams really do come true if you wish hard enough and minorities have the same rights as white people.

In case it wasn't clear when I said cops were the racists threatening black people it was to point out the absurdity of this shit.

Maybe "that dog don't hunt" isn't universal enough of a saying for "obviously terrible idea"... I don't know.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Bal » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:51 am

So you are arguing that because people want to kill them, they should refrain from arming themselves. Despite the fact that most incidents did not involve armed minorities, or because of it? I get that the cops are the racists in this scenario, I just don't get why you don't want to shoot them.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:07 am

Yeah, sorry Joxam. I know this isn't a perfect situation that leaves everyone happy and healthy, but that would be the realm of unicorns.

Currently black people are being killed while unnamed, and political movements that fully and openly support that are gaining traction. We already have a system that gerrymanders districts on the local scale, and sets requirements for voting that try to silence them completely on a national level.

I'm not saying hand out guns at the rec center and start fighting back, just saying keep your head down until it gets better isn't a solution.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mothra » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:08 pm

I agree with Jox on this one. If we're talking about just a guns on guns solution here, having a gun isn't going to change the fact the police, in these various situations, are the aggressor, and they have a gun on you before you would have a gun somehow on them. If you go for a gun, they'll shoot you and it'll be entirely justified. If you don't have a gun, they might shoot you for a wholly unjustifiable reason and you have a chance someone will record it. Or they might not shoot you. At least in the latter you have a chance to survive.

It's caused by police leadership not giving enough of a shit about black lives to treat murdering police officers as murderers. These police officers spectacularly abuse the trust society's given them in giving them a gun, which is not anyone's intent but the officer and, often it seems, the complacent leadership above them. Nothing's going to meaningfully change unless it comes from the top down.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:13 pm

I don't think being armed on an individual level is going to do much good. It's mass armament that brings change at the legislative level.

It's a crude oversimplification, but the idea is not to have individual shootouts with the cops, it's to bring back a modern analogue to the Black Panthers. A stick to pair with BLM/Civil Rights' carrot.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Bal » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:16 pm

I was being glib when I alluded to shooting cops outright. I just don't fully understand the reasoning that one should disarm one's self completely in the face of oppression, so as to not give the oppressor an excuse. Mainly because they don't need an excuse, they're oppressing you, that's the excuse.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:34 pm

It's a complex situation, but between "don't let black people have guns because it's a danger to us" and "don't let black people have guns because it's a danger to them" the only difference I see is that conservatives are less condescending.

Obviously continue protesting and try to drive social change through nonviolence and education, but remember that ultimately people only listen to soft talk when they see the big stick.

But feel free to explain how black people openly displaying the same rights as white people is justification for their murder.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:37 pm

I think we get that not all minorities agree on the best course and that it's a tough question. I can certainly respect Jox's personal choice for himself. So maybe just leave it at that.

To get back to the original article, the point was that a group of white folks is offering to help those minorities who DO want to exercise their legal and constitutional rights to do so, building common cause between whites and minorities in the process.

They're also going to traditional neo-nazi "safe spaces" and disrupting them.

I think both of these are laudable activities.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Thad » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:14 pm

beatbandito wrote:It's a complex situation, but between "don't let black people have guns because it's a danger to us" and "don't let black people have guns because it's a danger to them" the only difference I see is that conservatives are less condescending.


I don't see anybody saying "don't LET them". There's a difference between saying something is a bad idea and saying that it shouldn't be allowed.

We're talking about adults here; it's up to them to make their own decisions. Statistically, if you have a gun, that makes you more likely to be killed, not less. If somebody willingly accepts that additional risk, ultimately it's his choice.

Obviously continue protesting and try to drive social change through nonviolence and education, but remember that ultimately people only listen to soft talk when they see the big stick.


This is a fair argument. I fear that it would lead to escalation and even more innocent people dying. But I can see the argument that it would eventually lead to positive social change. It's up to individuals to decide what approach is right and what risks they're willing to take -- but they should understand the risks they're taking.

But feel free to explain how black people openly displaying the same rights as white people is justification for their murder.


I don't see anybody here making that justification. Just police, unions, lawyers, and juries.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:23 pm

Thad wrote:
beatbandito wrote:It's a complex situation, but between "don't let black people have guns because it's a danger to us" and "don't let black people have guns because it's a danger to them" the only difference I see is that conservatives are less condescending.


I don't see anybody saying "don't LET them". There's a difference between saying something is a bad idea and saying that it shouldn't be allowed.


Fair enough.

beatbandito wrote:It's a complex situation, but between "black people shouldn't have guns because it's a danger to us" and "black people shouldn't have guns because it's a danger to them" the only difference I see is that conservatives are less condescending.

And to cut any passes
Joxam wrote:To be clear, NO THEY FUCKING SHOULDN'T.


Thad wrote:
But feel free to explain how black people openly displaying the same rights as white people is justification for their murder.


I don't see anybody here making that justification. Just police, unions, lawyers, and juries.


I've yet to see any of those people or anyone here explain it, just claim it.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Joxam » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:31 pm

Jon, do you honestly believe that I, a half native American/Mexican man, believe that cops are justified for shooting minorities?

OK, I can't believe I have to do this but I will.

Let me make it absolutely clear that I believe that minorities should not only be afforded the same rights as white people but also afforded protections for their rights to protect their rights from racist and moreover should be given preferential treatment until such time that the racist practices of our country's past such as slavery, redlining, segregation, separate but equal schooling, racially motivated banking practices and any other racist ass shit I forgot is sufficiently redressed.

I DON'T THINK POLICE ARE JUSTIFIED WHEN THEY SHOOT MINORITIES, I do however think that the law is setup in such a way that police are very often found to be justified when shooting minorities.

When I say minorities should not carry guns to protect themselves from the police I say this because we live in a fucking country that has lionized police near to the point of folk heroes and 'he had a gun' is almost always all the justification police need to shoot you even if you aren't already living under the yoke of oppression.

I don't think minorities shouldn't have the right to own a gun, but just like I don't think minorities have the same rights as white people in our country with respect to free speech (watch Arizona immigration check point videos on youtube if you want to see white people doing shit no minority would get away with) I also don't think they have the same second amendment rights. Do I agree with that reality or think its even remotely fair? No, but to ignore that reality speaks to ignorance I cannot even comprehend.

There were once more handguns in my home than William and I had hands.

I stopped owning guns after a long conversation with my mother in which she made it clear to me that my white looking ass had the right to own those guns but she, my brown skinned mother, did not and she was uncomfortable with them being in our home. I had never even thought about it in that context and to be frank was being pretty fucking selfish. This is the context that my position comes from.

Now mind you, if a minority chooses to own a gun its absolutely their right and they should absolutely be afforded the same rights and protections a white person is, that just, in my opinion, isn't the reality we live in.

As I've sad in the past, its really hard to explain to a cop that you were excersizing your rights while he's stepping on the back of your fucking neck.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:59 pm

Obviously I am not arguing that you find the death of people of color at the hands of police officers justifiable.

I would think you could also find it obvious that I do not think the proper response to a person of color being confronted by the police is to draw down on them like Dark Tower Idris Elba.

You say that owning a gun will make the police shootings justifiable. The court system has all but proven guns are not the key to that justification.

The argument I saw when I decided to comment was that people of color should not arm themselves because it makes them and their community into targets. I believe that this is already the case, and guns are the only protection they have, since the protection most others take for granted is what they need to protect against.

I'm not advocating that anyone rise up right now, just that they not be forced to lay down should the worst come to pass.
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