Rooty-tooty point and shootys

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Defenestration
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Defenestration » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:24 am

Mothra wrote:Anyone talked with Defenestration since last night? I don't expect he was anywhere near the strip, but I'd like to get confirmation he's alright.

I sent him a text message, and a message on Slack. I'll let you guys know if he responds to either one.

Hm. I picked a bad day to forget to charge my phone again. Apologies; not being able to use my phone at work has given me *terrible* phone habits. Sorry to worry anyone if I did. However, I promise you that you will never catch me dead (:V) at a country music concert.

Got home late after giving blood. A lot of the hospitals turned away donors by the nighttime due to sufficient stock, but I guessed correctly that my delicious -O blood type would be appreciated.

There was an NPR report at lunch I caught. The reporter on the scene took a moment to say "listen to this for a moment" followed by utter silence. He then noted he was on the sidewalk of the Las Vegas Strip outside the Excalibur at 3:00 PM. Fucking unsettling. My lack of emotional response and empathy is well documented, but even I can sense the air around here. It smells like anger, mostly.

As a Las Vegan who has been trained by a 2nd Amendment toting father, previously enjoyed recreational shooting enough to pursue it for several years and is well versed in responsible gun use and storage... Frankly I hope they *don't* find a motive. The only thing different about this massacre is the setting, the time, and the new high score. Just another one on the fucking list. Might as well make it incredibly senseless, it's one of the few things I can imagine might bring some new force to people fighting for actual gun control. I want this asshole to have just been triggered by some argument or losing too much cash on a gambling trip to take the rest of his money, buy a bunch of weapons, and take that brand of unpermitted paraphernalia up to his room from the parking garage like we do liquor at MAGfest.

It's a futile hope, but it would be nice to make sure the deaths were not in vain by offering meaningful change in their wake.
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Cait
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Cait » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:55 am

Mongrel wrote:I don't really think it's worth talking about silencers much further, but if you're curious, the last data I saw said that the average noise level of a gunshot is about 160db and that a suppressor reduces it to 130db


People have already made plenty of points on the broader subject, but I wanted to address this real quick: Even if those are 100% precise numbers, deciBels are logarithmic. 160dB is ONE THOUSAND TIMES louder than 130dB.

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Grath
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:12 am

Mongrel wrote:
Grath wrote:It costs $200 (because that's what a Tommygun cost in 1934)


... wait, what?

The guy in the video quotes a price of $1500. I thought maybe you meant something about grandfathered guns, but, uh, AFAIK, Thompsons were not known for being particularly silent?

$200 is the tax you pay to the government on top of the sale price to buy anything naughty - suppressors, short-barreled anythings, machine guns. This tax was set by the National Firearms Act in 1934 which restricted "gangster weapons" - tommyguns, sawed off shotguns, plus suppressors despite their not being used in crimes. They set the tax on each transfer to be "what a tommygun costs now." (Machine guns are now banned to only anything that was already owned in 1986.) Suppressors themselves would cost at most $50 out the door for the screw on kind if it weren't for the National Firearms Act. (The handgun in question would probably be like $1k max because they wouldn't need as wide a profit margin to compensate for the limited number of people willing/able to jump through all the hoops.)

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Thad » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:36 am

Hardly Ideal wrote:So, is now a good time to talk about gun control? Or should I just pencil it in for "never?"




(He was talking about last week's "now is not the time to talk about climate change" line. Still applies!)

Joxam wrote:Lets also not lose sight of the fact that the WHITE HOUSE has already come out and said now is not the time to talk about gun control, so tangentially related might be the best we get honestly.... as shitty as that is, don't get me wrong I'm not for that in any way.


That's about where I am. We absolutely should talk about gun control measures, but most of them are non-starters; we also need to do what we can do right now, and opposing the suppressor bill that's coming up for a vote fits under that heading.

If anybody's ready for some gallows humor, here's The Onion:
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens (the same article they post after every mass shooting, with the location changed)

This Shooting Isn’t About Gun Control We Refuse To Pass, It’s About Access To Mental Health Care We’re Continuing To Gut, editorial by Paul Ryan

NRA Says Mass Shootings Just The Unfortunate Price Of Protecting People’s Freedom To Commit Mass Shootings

Gorilla Sales Skyrocket After Latest Gorilla Attack

But, to end on a hopeful note:



Maybe this is a point where the conversation changes a little bit. I don't see any significant gun reforms happening right now, but this at least is a voice people might listen to explaining the issue in a way they might understand.

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Brentai
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Brentai » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:22 am

If nothing else, a solid refutation of the hero fantasy does a lot of good.

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Hardly Ideal
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Hardly Ideal » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:36 pm



Not to go on too big a tangent, but does anyone remember that creepy phone call from Silent Hill 3?

Creepy Phone Creep wrote:I have a present for you. Which do you prefer? To give pain? Or to recieve it? You can have the one you hate the most.

The folks at TV Tropes claim that from there on, you get a glut of items you don't need. Running out of bullets? Here's some more health kits. No health kits? Have some ammo instead.

Thinking about how it's apparently easier to get a machinegun than health care, that feels a bit too on-the-nose.
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Hardly Ideal
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Hardly Ideal » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:57 pm

Oh yeah, and O'Reilly literally just called this shooting "the price of freedom."
This is the price of freedom. Violent nuts are allowed to roam free until they do damage, no matter how threatening they are.

Unless they're a black 12-year-old kid, of course. Gotta gun those fuckers down with a vengeance.

ETA: For fuck's sake, that was literally just an Onion article!
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Bal
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Bal » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:21 pm


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Hardly Ideal
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Hardly Ideal » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:47 pm

I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Joxam » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:46 pm

Yeah its so fucking disingenuous.

People seem not to realize that semi-auto fire guns are reloaded with literal fucking explosive force and speed. The ONLY THING stopping a semi-auto rifle from being a full auto rifle IS the fact that you have to fire every bullet manually.

An explosion is a hell of a lot faster at things than humans, and taking away the need to fire it manually with a stock modification is effectively the same as taking away the need for fire it manually with an automatic cycling system.
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Bal
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Bal » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:49 pm

They're probably saying it because it's technically correct, and saying it defangs an easy jab from the gun enthusiasts out there.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:08 pm

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Polarization? No idea what you're talking about.

Also I like that Wyoming has so few non-gun owners that the entire number falls within the margin of error.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:32 pm

Hardly Ideal wrote:I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.

It's not cockamamie hair-splitting, the legal definition of full-auto is "fires more than one bullet per pull of the trigger". This is one of the many loopholes that arise when politicians that don't understand something try to regulate that thing.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:38 pm

Grath wrote:
Hardly Ideal wrote:I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.

It's not cockamamie hair-splitting, the legal definition of full-auto is "fires more than one bullet per pull of the trigger". This is one of the many loopholes that arise when politicians that don't understand something try to regulate that thing.

Huh. So that includes burst fire, I guess?

I mean, I'm fine with that!
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:13 pm

Mongrel wrote:
Grath wrote:
Hardly Ideal wrote:I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.

It's not cockamamie hair-splitting, the legal definition of full-auto is "fires more than one bullet per pull of the trigger". This is one of the many loopholes that arise when politicians that don't understand something try to regulate that thing.

Huh. So that includes burst fire, I guess?

I mean, I'm fine with that!

Yup, burst fire is considered full auto and was restricted in 1934/banned in 1986.

(There's a loophole here too: If you're a registered dealer of National Firearms Act restricted guns which requires actively being in that business and paying several thousand in taxes to the government on a yearly basis, and you get a letter from a police department saying "We'd like to test out a full auto gun to see if we want to issue it to our cops/SWAT/whatever", you can buy a post-1986 machinegun and keep it after you're done "demonstrating it" for the cops as long as you still have the dealer's license. But that requires cooperation from the police, a decent chunk of money, and an at least slightly functional business.)

Also, follow up which I was updating my previous post with but you responded before I was done: For an example of politicians who don't understand guns, Cuomo is advocating for NY-SAFE as a country-wide solution to gun violence. The only provision of NY-SAFE which might help is that background checks are required for every transfer except direct relatives (parent<->child or siblings.)

The meat and "I'm making everyone more safe!!!" of NY-SAFE is that it strengthened NY's Assault Weapons Ban. Assault Weapons Bans are fucking nonsense because they're banning "military style features", not actual firepower. An equivalent would banning spoilers on cars to try to stop people from speeding.
World War 2 marksman's rifle that'll put a hole through a half inch thick steel plate? Legal under NY-SAFE (bolt actions aren't restricted at all by it other than the universal magazine size requirements)
1950s Chinese semi-auto military rifle? Legal under NY-SAFE (it has a non-detachable 10 round magazine but it's easy to reload with clips)
The AR-15 I 3D printed at my old apartment with no background check? Legal under NY-SAFE (it doesn't have mostly-cosmetic features that make it easier to control, but is otherwise just as potentially-lethal as any other AR-15.)

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby TA » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:41 am

Grath wrote:
Mongrel wrote:
Grath wrote:
Hardly Ideal wrote:I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.

It's not cockamamie hair-splitting, the legal definition of full-auto is "fires more than one bullet per pull of the trigger". This is one of the many loopholes that arise when politicians that don't understand something try to regulate that thing.

Huh. So that includes burst fire, I guess?

I mean, I'm fine with that!

Yup, burst fire is considered full auto and was restricted in 1934/banned in 1986.

(There's a loophole here too: If you're a registered dealer of National Firearms Act restricted guns which requires actively being in that business and paying several thousand in taxes to the government on a yearly basis, and you get a letter from a police department saying "We'd like to test out a full auto gun to see if we want to issue it to our cops/SWAT/whatever", you can buy a post-1986 machinegun and keep it after you're done "demonstrating it" for the cops as long as you still have the dealer's license. But that requires cooperation from the police, a decent chunk of money, and an at least slightly functional business.)

Also, follow up which I was updating my previous post with but you responded before I was done: For an example of politicians who don't understand guns, Cuomo is advocating for NY-SAFE as a country-wide solution to gun violence. The only provision of NY-SAFE which might help is that background checks are required for every transfer except direct relatives (parent<->child or siblings.)

The meat and "I'm making everyone more safe!!!" of NY-SAFE is that it strengthened NY's Assault Weapons Ban. Assault Weapons Bans are fucking nonsense because they're banning "military style features", not actual firepower. An equivalent would banning spoilers on cars to try to stop people from speeding.
World War 2 marksman's rifle that'll put a hole through a half inch thick steel plate? Legal under NY-SAFE (bolt actions aren't restricted at all by it other than the universal magazine size requirements)
1950s Chinese semi-auto military rifle? Legal under NY-SAFE (it has a non-detachable 10 round magazine but it's easy to reload with clips)
The AR-15 I 3D printed at my old apartment with no background check? Legal under NY-SAFE (it doesn't have mostly-cosmetic features that make it easier to control, but is otherwise just as potentially-lethal as any other AR-15.)


Yeah, gun nuts keep trotting out the NRA's "mostly-cosmetic" talking point, as though legislation focused a host of modifications that are specifically to increase concealability, and increase accuracy and decrease recoil on repeat rapid firing, wasn't specifically targeted at mass shooting scenarios.

Nobody gives a shit about a bolt-action rifle that'll put a hole through a half inch thick steel plate. We care about a rifle that'll rapidly and easily put holes in 500 people from a hotel window.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Thad » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:28 am

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby beatbandito » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:36 pm

Grath wrote:The meat and "I'm making everyone more safe!!!" of NY-SAFE is that it strengthened NY's Assault Weapons Ban. Assault Weapons Bans are fucking nonsense because they're banning "military style features", not actual firepower. An equivalent would banning spoilers on cars to try to stop people from speeding.
World War 2 marksman's rifle that'll put a hole through a half inch thick steel plate? Legal under NY-SAFE (bolt actions aren't restricted at all by it other than the universal magazine size requirements)
1950s Chinese semi-auto military rifle? Legal under NY-SAFE (it has a non-detachable 10 round magazine but it's easy to reload with clips)
The AR-15 I 3D printed at my old apartment with no background check? Legal under NY-SAFE (it doesn't have mostly-cosmetic features that make it easier to control, but is otherwise just as potentially-lethal as any other AR-15.)


If the only legal guns were DIY bolt-action rifles I would legitimately feel much safer.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:31 pm

@Thad: Oh god, I fucking lost it at #6
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Joxam » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:05 pm

Grath wrote:
Hardly Ideal wrote:I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.

It's not cockamamie hair-splitting, the legal definition of full-auto is "fires more than one bullet per pull of the trigger". This is one of the many loopholes that arise when politicians that don't understand something try to regulate that thing.


Grath wrote:
Mongrel wrote:
Grath wrote:
Hardly Ideal wrote:I keep hearing people say that bump stocks "simulate" full-auto fire, which just strikes me as transparently euphemistic. When your gun is vomiting 500 rounds per minute, there's nothing "simulated" about it. Like, okay, the gun is still technically a semi-auto; if the stock weren't there, you'd still have to mash the trigger the old-fashioned way. But that's still some pretty cockamamie hair-splitting.

It's not cockamamie hair-splitting, the legal definition of full-auto is "fires more than one bullet per pull of the trigger". This is one of the many loopholes that arise when politicians that don't understand something try to regulate that thing.

Huh. So that includes burst fire, I guess?

I mean, I'm fine with that!

Yup, burst fire is considered full auto and was restricted in 1934/banned in 1986.

(There's a loophole here too: If you're a registered dealer of National Firearms Act restricted guns which requires actively being in that business and paying several thousand in taxes to the government on a yearly basis, and you get a letter from a police department saying "We'd like to test out a full auto gun to see if we want to issue it to our cops/SWAT/whatever", you can buy a post-1986 machinegun and keep it after you're done "demonstrating it" for the cops as long as you still have the dealer's license. But that requires cooperation from the police, a decent chunk of money, and an at least slightly functional business.)

Also, follow up which I was updating my previous post with but you responded before I was done: For an example of politicians who don't understand guns, Cuomo is advocating for NY-SAFE as a country-wide solution to gun violence. The only provision of NY-SAFE which might help is that background checks are required for every transfer except direct relatives (parent<->child or siblings.)

The meat and "I'm making everyone more safe!!!" of NY-SAFE is that it strengthened NY's Assault Weapons Ban. Assault Weapons Bans are fucking nonsense because they're banning "military style features", not actual firepower. An equivalent would banning spoilers on cars to try to stop people from speeding.
World War 2 marksman's rifle that'll put a hole through a half inch thick steel plate? Legal under NY-SAFE (bolt actions aren't restricted at all by it other than the universal magazine size requirements)
1950s Chinese semi-auto military rifle? Legal under NY-SAFE (it has a non-detachable 10 round magazine but it's easy to reload with clips)
The AR-15 I 3D printed at my old apartment with no background check? Legal under NY-SAFE (it doesn't have mostly-cosmetic features that make it easier to control, but is otherwise just as potentially-lethal as any other AR-15.)


Joxam wrote:Yeah its so fucking disingenuous.
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