Barefoot and Pregnant

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Mongrel
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:07 pm

Right, but if we look at countries like Japan, you see this phenomenon coming about in great part because of intense pressure - social, academic, work, familial - on the human organism, combined with alienation (which is a larger and more complex subject with many origins). Of course this same pressure exists in most countries.

Emotional Labour is another burden and obligation to throw on the pile, and you'd think that adding further obligations would only increase the likelihood for alienation and social withdrawal. And maybe it is the case that women are feeling just as alienated and depressed as men. Certainly global depression statistics show that women are significantly more likely to be depressed (though there's some argument about whether male depression is concealed to a degree), generally 2:1 women to men.

But I cannot find any global statistics on alienation if that's something we're even meaningfully measuring yet, and so have no idea if this trends higher in men or women. There have been a few piecemeal studies on loneliness - one US study suggested that as much as 40% of Americans experience loneliness deep enough to be a significant emotional presence in their lives, to describe themselves as "lonely", but it is in fact a largely overlooked issue, both scientifically and socially. I can find NOTHING at all, even in the few studies that do come up, that tried to break loneliness down by gender (maybe I would find something with further searching). Which is amazing, because isolation is a massive health risk - the few studies we do have all agree that it correlates hugely with poor health and shortened lives, possibly just as strongly or even more so than depression, which has been studied far more in depth (and the two may be significantly related).

So for now all we have is anecdotal nonsense. We know people are feeling alienated by a modern existence even if we can't say with scientific certainty how big of an impact alienation has. We can also see that different genders deal possibly with alienation in different ways - men appear to be more comfortable with an artificial substitute. But is that because ersatz companionship is less attractive to women in general, or because women just want different things from ersatz companions? Or do women want more sophisticated responses from a potential ersatz companion than the simple greetings and inquiries the man displayed in the video appears happy with (and indeed, I've seen men able to be very happy with waifus with all the personality of a door, so long as she smiled and said a few nice things).

Anyway, corporations would rather sell things to 100% of the population than 49%. If social researchers and the medical community don't start looking deeper into this, I'm sure corporations will.

It's a fascinating question to me. One we're not looking at enough. Not because we need better-made robot waifus and husbandos but because I feel like loneliness is an endemic disease, possibly THE endemic disease of our times, and not only are we not studying it, we're not even acknowledging it, except in bizarre roundabout ways that seem almost tragicomic, like this.... thing. Without real objective data we're limited to describing the problem in fanciful and poetic terms, to merely artistic commentary which fall short of driving us to actually look at how our societies are structured, if they're harmful, or if we should really try to change those structures.
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Brentai
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Brentai » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:46 pm

Mongrel wrote:It's not like an imaginary digital companion as a response to depression and alienation is something that wouldn't sell in the rest of the world.


Shit, I've been using you guys for more than half my life now.

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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:51 pm

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Bal
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Bal » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:55 pm

Brentai wrote:
Mongrel wrote:It's not like an imaginary digital companion as a response to depression and alienation is something that wouldn't sell in the rest of the world.


Shit, I've been using you guys for more than half my life now.


And I you, probably imaginary internet ghosts.

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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Friday » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Bal how can you say that after I kritzed you while you were playing Scout
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Friday » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:52 pm

Anyway, I know what I'm about to say is tired old information that is not news to anyone, but...

Humans evolved in close-knit tribes. Now I know this kind of situation has its drawbacks/cons, but, well. To put it simply, we are simply not wired for living alone like we basically do now. Every time a parent complains how hard it is to raise a child, I completely sympathize with them, because holy fucking shit it is not a job for just two people, much less a single parent. The whole fucking tribe raises the kid. Yeah, there's daycare and nannies and shit and I guess if you're in the upper 5% you can afford that shit. Everyone else just has to do the work of 20+ people by themselves or with a single helper.

That's just one facet to our current modern lives that is fucked because we don't live in tribal structures. Sure, you might have a bbq with a neighbor once in a while, you've got a few friends, you come here to talk about videogames. Those things are not full substitutes.

Japan is like a hyper-accelerated version of this problem. Girls go to clubs to have cute boys who look exactly like the 4 main characters of Final Fantasy XV (take your pick) lecture them about their lives while they drink. Boys go to ear cleaning parlors where a girl in a maid outfit stabs your canal with a q-tip.

Watching that ad made me really sad, because of the ending. Yeah, the guy was happy just to have someone at home waiting for him, even if it's just a fucking pre-programmed hologram with X number of possible responses to his multiple choice texts. They've built something to help with the problem that will only cause more of the problem. Can't really blame them, though, when pretty much all young japanese people are "not really looking for a relationship" because holy shit japan your culture is FUCKING INSANE STOP WITH THE OVERWORK/CAREER SHIT JESUS FUCKING CHRIST. Like everyone is like LOL JAPAN SO WEIRD BECAUSE OF THEIR WEIRD TV AND PORN but that shit is 100% fine, it's the fucking salarymen and the misogyny.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Friday » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:54 pm

I mean, here is Japan in two sentences:

"Why won't young people have babies! They need to have babies! They're irresponsible layabouts!"

"Oh, you're pregnant? You're fired."
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:04 pm

The whole OVERWORK YOURSELF TO DEATH is just nuts there. Beyond just digital waifus you see so many other responses, like the "evaporated people" who actually choose to become non-existent non-humans living in slums like Sanya because they just don't have the energy to stay in crazyland anymore.

To say nothing of Japan's sky-high rates of good old-fashioned suicide.

Like, you just cannot run a society like this because it just starts to break down and people start to go nuts on a massive scale but Japan just can't confront that because it's creeped into becoming their whole identity as a nation, in a nation which is super-conformist, and they're clinging to that so hard and it is fucking tragic.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Friday » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:13 pm

They won't go see a therapist either because that shit is WEAK as FUCK and only FAGGOTS get help REAL MEN WORK UNTIL THEY COMMIT SUICIDE

I mean, I was watching a documentary where this Japanese Dominatrix talks about how after the first session which is standard whips and stepping on you, pretty much all her clients just become talk therapy sessions with some light spanking.

Japan: Where going to get stepped on and whipped is more manly than talking to a person about your problems.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby MarsDragon » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:51 pm

Going back to why this isn't marketed to women, I think it's because women are (wrongly) seen as not needing it. So it doesn't get marketed to women, everyone makes fun of the loser guys who buy one, and women are turned off so it's even harder to market to them.

(I'd probably buy one if it came in death robot form. Really, what is it but talking to myew on a late night, except she can also turn on the lights and start the rice cooker?)

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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:58 pm

DEATH ROBOT DEATH ROBOT
COMING TO YOUR TOWWWNNNN
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:22 pm

I was talking to Starr about this and we were speculating about a lot of different stuff related to all this (plus us making crassly sexist jokes about men just having lower standards for their imaginary playmates. >:3 ), thinking of various guy/girl generalizations that cross most cultures related to this.

One idea she brought up was that a woman seeking men is going to have a way easier time than a guy seeking women. I think the perception of that is stronger than the actual reality, that it's a generalization, but that's certainly still a thing borne out by actual data (gross imbalances in dating websites, for instance).

But she also brought up different gender pressures related to the overstatement of that idea. In one sense, even though a guy who has "failed" at dating and has turned to buying a robot girl is socially stigmatized as a "loser", there's still a nominal sympathy for that guy, that the "loser nerd" still has some minimal acceptance in society, that any guy who's ever had "wimmin troubles" can sympthize with at least a little. Only the most stupidly machismo idiots can fail to imagine themselves in a similar situation. Indeed, in Japan the hopeless otaku loser actually has a pretty good track record of sympathetic portrayal in anime! Even outside of Japan you have a fair amount of revenge-of-the-nerds type stuff where the loser nerd is played sympathetically and is sometimes allowed to win (though in both cases winning often means getting a real girl... but I suppose "able to maintain normal social interaction and be in a loving relationship" is a fair wincon. I suppose it depends on if the woman involved is depicted as an actual person or a prize out of a pachinko machine).

Whereas a woman who fails to find a man and who turns to a robot or fantasy guy is lower than low. Sympathetic portrayals of such women exist too, but they're less likely to end well and they're just far fewer overall and also far more likely to assume that a woman who can't find a guy is a deeply broken person and not just a little socially awkward. And even positive portrayals tend to be of the crazy cat lady type where they're using a pet or other real living thing as surrogate family, rather than turning - unthinkably - to some artificial widget.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Hardly Ideal » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:19 am

I feel more than a little oogie saying it, but my first thought was "hey, cool animu hologram fairy." Followed immediately by "nnnnnguhhthat'ssodepressing."

It'd seem less gross if... I dunno. If it worked as some data assistant deal? Like if it relayed all your calendar reminders and PlayStation trophies and stuff? Or hell, what about a matchmaker function? "Hey, I found this nice girl who also likes online games! ...yes, of course girls play video games! Why don't you ask her out for coffee and Final Fantasy XIV?"
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Defenestration » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:06 am

https://gateboxlab.stores.jp/items/57ea ... 404d002d77
Cost is about 2,500 USD.

Seems rather high, unless it's no glasses 3D.
Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem

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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Sharkey » Sat Dec 17, 2016 4:11 am

If they marketed this to women you know it'd be a talking hamster or a selection of Sanrio characters. Which is still kind of depressing, but doesn't have the ick factor of spending three grand on a sexualized Clippy.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby sei » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:29 am

Friday wrote:Anyway, I know what I'm about to say is tired old information that is not news to anyone, but...

Humans evolved in close-knit tribes. Now I know this kind of situation has its drawbacks/cons, but, well. To put it simply, we are simply not wired for living alone like we basically do now.
Probably not wired for living with such heavily "other"ed types, either. See: modern American politics.


Mongrel wrote:Whereas a woman who fails to find a man and who turns to a robot or fantasy guy is lower than low. Sympathetic portrayals of such women exist too, but they're less likely to end well and they're just far fewer overall and also far more likely to assume that a woman who can't find a guy is a deeply broken person and not just a little socially awkward.
Princess Jellyfish?


Sharkey wrote:If they marketed this to women you know it'd be a talking hamster or a selection of Sanrio characters. Which is still kind of depressing, but doesn't have the ick factor of spending three grand on a sexualized Clippy.
It looks like you're trying to ejaculate, goshujin-sama.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:55 am

sei wrote:Princess Jellyfish?

Never heard of it! Seems interesting.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Büge » Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:45 am

sei wrote:
Mongrel wrote:Whereas a woman who fails to find a man and who turns to a robot or fantasy guy is lower than low. Sympathetic portrayals of such women exist too, but they're less likely to end well and they're just far fewer overall and also far more likely to assume that a woman who can't find a guy is a deeply broken person and not just a little socially awkward.
Princess Jellyfish?


WataMote.

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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby beatbandito » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:54 am

I just skimmed a lot of this because of boy do we like talking about holographic waifus apparently. Anyway Mongrel seems to be the only one who touched on it, but this definitely feels like more of a response to apartments and work schedules that are completely nonconducting for pet ownership. Equating it to a wife / girlfriend because it is a female avatar feels dismissive to the idea of what kind of relationship a significant other or spouse should provide. This is just the idea of a wagging tail to greet you at the end of the day.
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Re: Barefoot and Pregnant

Postby Mongrel » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:10 pm

Well, Sharkey actually mentioned that they'd be be more likely to have animal appearances and be marketed more as pets if sold to women.

I dunno... I think that there's a pretty significant psychological difference in an artificial object being presented as an animal versus being the same object only presented as a human.
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