Justice

User avatar
Bal
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:13 pm

Re: Justice

Postby Bal » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:19 pm

Actually, there's significant evidence that deterrence doesn't work at all. Essentially the argument goes that if the law is enough to deter you from committing a crime, it's likely you wouldn't have anyway. Not to mention all the incidents where deterrence has no bearing at all. Crimes of passion, accidents that are deemed criminal due to the surrounding circumstances, etc. But again, that's all we've got.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7685
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Justice

Postby Mongrel » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:55 pm

Friday wrote:You can't apply deterrence to "people fucking up." Deterrence works against premeditated crimes. Leaving your baby, texting while driving, that kind of shit is literally empty brain behavior. There's no thought involved at all. I won't say it's entirely ineffective, but I seriously doubt a sudden influx of dead babies in cars if we lightened the prison term for it.


Exactly. This isn't even the "knowing" sort of negligence either, where say, safety standards at the factory are lax because we all know everyone's smart enough not to fall in the peanut butter machine and railings cost money, right boss? Dead-babies-in-cars has, apart from maybe one or two weird and ugly exceptions, been a case of total forgetfulness and overworked brains. It's really difficult for me to say this is something that needs to be punishable by incarceration as if that will provide any sort of benefit to society.

The only angle I can even buy as an argument is the retributive one "Well we as a society can't let that go unpunished because that would mean we as a society have Bad Values and Tolerate Bad Behaviour.", I don't agree with that argument, but I can at least see it as a valid one and I'm sure I'm okay with at least some form of real punishment - community service, etc.

But for fear? Deterrent? No. In the vast majority of cases an at-risk (i.e. overworked and overstressed) parent who worries about leaving their baby in a hot car, they're not going to be deterred by fear of going to jail, they're deterred by the utterly terrifying thought of their child dying horribly in a fiery furnace.
Image

User avatar
TA
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Re: Justice

Postby TA » Wed Aug 03, 2016 5:10 pm

Deterrence also only works against people who expect to get caught.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7685
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Justice

Postby Mongrel » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:58 am

Image

User avatar
Sharkey
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:11 pm
Location: Send Lawyers, Guns and Money
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Sharkey » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:58 pm

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of deterrence when the horrors of american prisons are such a part of popular consciousness that "don't drop the soap" has gone beyond a crass joke, past the realm of cliche, and into "workin hard or hardly workin" territory. We could have a Doctor Doom-esque "the punishment for every infraction is instant death" and I don't think it'd affect crime statistics much (other than recidivism, obvs.) It's the sort of doctrine that assumes rational actors while also being damn near impossible to empirically test.

Though the best comparisons we have seem to indicate that length of sentencing doesn't change a single goddamn thing.
Image

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7685
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Justice

Postby Mongrel » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:05 pm

I can assure you that most of the rest of the world thinks the "298 years" stuff is ridiculous, at least.

I mean, most countries have some form of indefinite detainment, but it's actually treated seriously.
Image

User avatar
Sharkey
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:11 pm
Location: Send Lawyers, Guns and Money
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Sharkey » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:19 pm

Yeah, there really shouldn't be many situations where that sort of thing applies. A repeat offender that's proven impossible to rehabilitate? Keep them in and reconsider if/when that situation changes. A repeat offender that has proven impossible to rehabilitate or contain? Congratulations, you caught the fucking Joker. We can reopen the capital punishment debate when that happens.
Image

User avatar
Bal
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:13 pm

Re: Justice

Postby Bal » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:24 pm

That 293 years stuff is just an artifact of people who are effectively receiving life sentences in the form of multiple terms to be served consecutively for multiple crimes.

User avatar
Sharkey
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:11 pm
Location: Send Lawyers, Guns and Money
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Sharkey » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:35 pm

I think we all know that, bal.
Image

User avatar
François
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:00 am

Re: Justice

Postby François » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:15 pm



I'm sure that would be rad if there weren't ellipses in the middle of that url mang.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7685
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Justice

Postby Mongrel » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:35 pm

Fuck!

Fixed link

(and fixed above)
Image

User avatar
François
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:00 am

Re: Justice

Postby François » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:54 pm

Haha wow, that went to an unexpectedly awesome place. It's still pretty doubtful whether anything will come of it, though.

User avatar
Sharkey
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:11 pm
Location: Send Lawyers, Guns and Money
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Sharkey » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:04 pm

That is possibly the single most satisfying thing I've read all year.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Thad » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:07 am

Brentai wrote:Just tell me how many bad things you haven't done in your life because you didn't want to be arrested. It's probably a lot!


I honestly can't think of many. Maybe I'd eat the occasional pot brownie on a Saturday night if it were legal?

I break laws all the time. I exceed the speed limit, I download copyrighted material -- earlier tonight I violated the DMCA's anti-circumvention clause when I ripped a legally-purchased DVD to my hard drive. The illegal things I don't do are mostly down to a lack of interest or a fear of consequences that has more to do with safety than law.

I guess maybe I'm a little likelier to stop on a yellow light if there's a camera?

Bal wrote:Actually, there's significant evidence that deterrence doesn't work at all. Essentially the argument goes that if the law is enough to deter you from committing a crime, it's likely you wouldn't have anyway. Not to mention all the incidents where deterrence has no bearing at all. Crimes of passion, accidents that are deemed criminal due to the surrounding circumstances, etc.


Right, exactly. The threat of prison is a piss-poor way of teaching impulse control.

Brent, let me turn your question around on you: tell me how many bad things you have done in your life, despite having a full intellectual understanding of the consequences, because you were too pissed off to care? Or had had a couple drinks and weren't in complete control?

Bal wrote:But again, that's all we've got.


Well, I mean, it's what our legal system is structured around, if that's what you mean by "that's all we've got." In terms of actual human psychology, well no, it's not remotely all we've got. Discipline and impulse control are skills; they can be taught.

TA wrote:Deterrence also only works against people who expect to get caught.


That's another good point. There's a bit in Rule 34 that talks about the criminal mindset. It says (paraphrasing) that most crimes are the result of poor impulse control, of people not considering the consequences of their actions. Then there's a second category: poor risk assessment. That is, people who consider the consequences of their actions but miscalculate their odds of getting caught.

Then there's a third type: people who assess their risks accurately. These people, by definition, are almost never caught, because they never commit a crime unless it's unlikely they'll be caught.

Type 3 is a challenge, but it's also the least common. The first two types can be prevented from committing crimes in the first place through adequate education.

User avatar
Bal
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:13 pm

Re: Justice

Postby Bal » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:33 pm

Obviously that's what I mean by "that's all we've got" because in every practical sense it's all we've got. The conversation wasn't about theoretical shit we might be doing better.

User avatar
Mothra
Woah Dangsaurus
Posts: 2965
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:12 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Mothra » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:23 pm

Mongrel wrote:Fuck!

Fixed link

(and fixed above)

That is beautiful.

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Thad » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:09 pm

No more federal private prisons.

It's a good start, but most private prisons are state prisons.

User avatar
TA
Posts: 1431
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Re: Justice

Postby TA » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:46 pm

No more federal private prisons overseen by the Department of Justice, you mean. So that's 13 prisons across the country. The massive DHS and ICE private prison networks remain untouched.

Maybe this is a step towards shutting those down too, but it's not there yet.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 5172
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: Justice

Postby Thad » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:20 pm

Thanks for the correction. Yes, that's what I meant.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7685
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Justice

Postby Mongrel » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:55 pm

Hey, did you know there's a nationwide prison strike going on in the US?

(via WBUR.org)

Considering how many private prisons will be looking to quash this on the cheap, things might get... "interesting".
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Caithness and 1 guest