Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

[Lyrai]

Yo Mongrel, shut the fuck up.

We don't like the fact that we've reached so low that decking a nazi in the face is enjoyable

We don't like the fact that we've reached the point where nazis think they can talk in public and then act shocked, SHOCKED I say, that they get punched.

We don't like the fact that this needs to be spelled out.

In so many words, shut the fuck up.

[Lyrai]

Like, remember last time what happened when someone tried to go "But guys, actually" about a bigot getting hit? We had to move new forums.

All because someone decided to be a party pooper about shit everyone already knew. We just wanted our moment of schadenfreude.

Just go back to posting quotes of people nobody fucking knows in the quote thread.

[Joxam]

In fairness, this was literally one punch. If I'm not mistaken the thing we had our disagreements about back then involved a colapsable baton and actual acute bodily harm.

[beatbandito]

Oh my gods don't any of you have jobs?

Anyway this didn't get a good answer, and is an integral enough question about this argument that the fact its still a question worries me.

There are plenty of other groups with awful ideologies who we're not punching in the streets. Hardcore Stalinists (there's a few of them around... I know a couple guys)? Do we punch them? Anarchists or aggressive Libertarians who wish to destroy the state and thereby destroy the state's protections of the vulnerable? What about brown guys preaching hate? Or ladies in burqas? I know women who will tell you that that last one is something they honestly believe constitutes an act of violence and I'm not even sure I fully disagree - it's not an easy question.

It's okay to punch someone when their end goal is the elimination of you, or another person or other persons directly. Anarchists and Stalinists support political views that will end in pain and suffering for a lot of people, but it's not their goal. If a person walks up to you at a party and talks about the flaws in government sponsored health care you either roll your eyes, sigh and nod along, argue about how assholes like that are ruining everything, or whatever in between depending on your social awareness. If someone at a party is going around the party and trying to get a group together to jump you, you punch them in the throat. Anything other than that reaction (this is of course assuming we live in a universe where asking the kind of person that would jump you at a party not to does not actually work) is a lack of survival instinct.

edit: oh hey look still no one seems to get the difference between hitting homophobes and hitting nazis

[Joxam]

Beat, I was literally trying to point out at least one of the differences between then and now.

[Mongrel]

I mean I stopped assuming good faith two pages ago when he said we were "happily cackling away" about someone punching a man in the face, like any of us involved in this fucking conversation want to be in this position.

The position of most of us finding something that we finally cannot condemn violence against.

Yup, yucking it up over here.

I said *I* wanted to cackle.

Seriously. Do a ctrl+F on page seven, the page you're talking about.

[Mongrel]

All because someone decided to be a party pooper about shit everyone already knew. We just wanted our moment of schadenfreude

There you go. Lyrai just summarized the thread.

[Joxam]

"I would have been happily cackling like any of you." I know how to read.

[Mongrel]

I think you're too caught up with the word "Nazi" here. What we're really talking about is White Nationalists. Some of whom fancy the Nazis, but all of whom are dangerous, and incompatible with our society.

I'd agree, but the question was about labels, and people using labels as justification for action. White Nationalists starts to cover a lot more ground.

[Mongrel]

Oh my gods don't any of you have jobs?

Anyway this didn't get a good answer, and is an integral enough question about this argument that the fact its still a question worries me.

There are plenty of other groups with awful ideologies who we're not punching in the streets. Hardcore Stalinists (there's a few of them around... I know a couple guys)? Do we punch them? Anarchists or aggressive Libertarians who wish to destroy the state and thereby destroy the state's protections of the vulnerable? What about brown guys preaching hate? Or ladies in burqas? I know women who will tell you that that last one is something they honestly believe constitutes an act of violence and I'm not even sure I fully disagree - it's not an easy question.

It's okay to punch someone when their end goal is the elimination of you, or another person or other persons directly. Anarchists and Stalinists support political views that will end in pain and suffering for a lot of people, but it's not their goal. If a person walks up to you at a party and talks about the flaws in government sponsored health care you either roll your eyes, sigh and nod along, argue about how assholes like that are ruining everything, or whatever in between depending on your social awareness. If someone at a party is going around the party and trying to get a group together to jump you, you punch them in the throat. Anything other than that reaction (this is of course assuming we live in a universe where asking the kind of person that would jump you at a party not to does not actually work) is a lack of survival instinct.

*nods*

No disagreement.

[beatbandito]

Beat, I was literally trying to point out at least one of the differences between then and now.

my point being that you are allowed to hit nazis with collapsing batons and are not allowed to hit homophobes with hands, unless audible sighs are the homophobe giving you a written essay on why they're trying to start a political movement to eliminate homosexuality

[Mongrel]

"I would have been happily cackling like any of you." I know how to read.

Jox, if I really wanted to piss the lot of you off for no good reason while affecting a fake air of moral superiority I could do it in a lot fewer words and with way less time spent than the damn novels of the past two and a half days.

Just for a second imagine that I am not in fact trolling you or making some long disingenuous argument purely for the sake of arguing.

I am concerned that my friends are potentially in the process of normalizing behaviours which I believe are ultimately self-destructive. It's that simple. Yes I really am. This isn't some bullshit forum snare.

[Bal]

No, you're talking about labels, I am talking about how White Nationalists are incompatible with modern society and any attempt to interface with these animals in any way that doesn't drive them from our midst is foolhardy at best.

[Joxam]

I just feel like you're telling us we have to step over the first wave of bodies to defend them, and maybe you're not, and maybe I'm just too angry about our current presidental situation (he gag ordered the EPA and the USDA today, and tomorrow it goes on and on), but that enrages me.

[Mongrel]

No, you're talking about labels, I am talking about how White Nationalists are incompatible with modern society and any attempt to interface with these animals in any way that doesn't drive them from our midst is foolhardy at best.

Okay, so I had asked how do we know who's a Nazi.

You replied, that those would be the ones who say "I'm a Nazi". Then we went back and forth about the cases where they don't say "I'm a Nazi" but say things which can be identified as Nazism and how far that goes and blah blah blah.

Were we not then speaking of a very specific label?

I mean... I'm totally cool with moving beyond that and dropping labels and speaking about behaviour instead. So that's fine!

[Bal]

TALKING ABOUT BEING A NAZI IS THE BEHAVIOR

[Rico]

Just for a second imagine that I am not in fact trolling you or making some long disingenuous argument purely for the sake of arguing..

So write better, because you sure as fuck fooled most of the people here.

[Mongrel]

I just feel like you're telling us we have to step over the first wave of bodies to defend them, and maybe you're not, and maybe I'm just too angry about our current presidental situation (he gag ordered the EPA and the USDA today, and tomorrow it goes on and on), but that enrages me.

Man, no.

I have said in post after post after post that we should defend ourselves. I have talked about armed self-defence from Civil Rights leaders. I agreed with Friday's Han Solo analogy even. Greedo has a gun. He's there to shoot you or at least drag you away to an uncertain fate with a high chance of death. You're in a lawless town. Capping that fucker 1977-style is A-FUCKIN'-OK in my book.

It is PRECISELY because everyone is angry that I am trying desperately to talk to you guys, to try and not let your anger run away with you.

Look, I am a huge coward. I spend my whole life afraid of everything. And I'm in many ways deeply pessimistic. When I guessed Trump might be elected, part of that was simply because I'm just that sort of guy who expects the worst. When Thad posts about the arc of history bending towards justice I'm here silently shaking my head, remembering the weight of untold thousands of years of death and horror and misery that this species has accumulated. You gotta work hard for justice - and sometimes you screw it up anyway. Sometimes it all slips away even when you did everything right.

A lot of you live better lives that that. You're better people. You think positively and have positive attitudes.

But here's the thing. I'm so used to being afraid all the time, that I have to overcome this shit to function as a basic human being. So I ask myself what does a person do when they are not afraid, and I try as hard as I can to do that. I am not inured to it, but I am used to it.

For some of you though, this may be the first time, you're really afraid of what might happen in a genuinely evil world. I don't know. I've known you all for a long time, but that's really personal, so I don't want to assume. I know some of you have faced death before. Others have faced hatred and attacks. But when that feeling of fear and helplessness grabs you by the throat, is a feeling so awful. If you don't feel it constantly, it must be a hell of a shock - and I can't even imagine how harsh a blow it is for someone to feel that way for the first time. What a person might consider doing in that moment is something they might never have considered doing up to that point and worst of all, the action they choose may only wind up hurting them even more.

[Mongrel]

Just for a second imagine that I am not in fact trolling you or making some long disingenuous argument purely for the sake of arguing..

So write better, because you sure as fuck fooled most of the people here.

I think a lot of the people here are mad and they were mad before I made so much as a post in this thread.

I think they're right to be mad too! But man, there aren't enemies lurking behind every bush on the brontoforums. My posts are fine if you accept the premise that I'm not against you.

[Mongrel]

TALKING ABOUT BEING A NAZI IS THE BEHAVIOR

Sure, fine! We were just talking at cross-purposes. Confusion cleared up then.

So the question is, if I'm afraid of a slippery slope, and the defining trait you claim is behavioural, where do we draw the line on that behaviour?

EDIT: But eh we already did this kinda-sorta. Beat had a good answer too already and so did Sharkey. So if you just want to leave this off without rehashing it, we can.