Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

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Bal
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Bal » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:29 pm

But they are that clear. If someone makes it clear that they're a nazi, then you drive them out. If they don't make it totally clear that they're a nazi, then you don't, but it doesn't hurt to keep an eye out if they're acting fishy. The point being, if you are confident enough in you views as a nazi that you're willing to express them publicly, something has gone wrong, someone should have been stamping that out in them, and we're going to have to be more clear that being a nazi is incompatible with living with the rest of us.

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Mongrel
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:35 pm

Law enforcement actually has to deal with this exact question all the time. When you have a kid in a basement who's being radicalized, when does he become a terrorist? When can they successfully arrest and prosecute him? When can they say he has crossed the threshold from talking shit on the internet and having shitty opinions to actually planning murder and destruction? And that's a really tough question. There's high standards. They can't just go to a judge and say "I know a Nazi when I see one" because we have due process and reasonable doubts, because we have an actual justice system whose job it is to consider those exact questions. Because, bizarrely enough, we think that at least sometimes rehabilitation is a realistic possibility.

But the agents in those cases have the same goals you guys do here: To stop someone BEFORE they commit an act of terrorism.

They don't always make it in time. Sometimes they get it all wrong. But even though the system does not have a 100% success rate, I don't think we should be looking to do an end-run around it.
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Bal
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Bal » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:37 pm

Do you even read these posts? I didn't say "I know a Nazi when I see one" I said "I know a Nazi when they're confident enough to tell me so". There's certainly a problem with people being radicalized in their basements, but there's jack shit anyone's ever been able to do about that. However, when they up and tell you what they are, believe them.

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Mongrel
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:44 pm

You can replace my sentence with yours and that wouldn't change the outcome of any theoretical trial against someone who is accused of being a potential Nazi terrorist.

I mean we're just back to the case of "What about the ones who won't admit it openly?" if that's the majority of Nazis, the problem doesn't go away by just "taking out" the declared ones. So then you have to start making decisions if you want to keep going. And that's without getting into stuff like rationalizing idiots who espouse Nazi hatred while honestly believing they aren't Nazis themselves.
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Newbie » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:48 pm

Mongrel wrote:Actually I think Spencer is very much outnumbered.


And I am saying this no longer matters to them. The fact that they got people like Spencer on the national stage to talk about being a style icon and their fucking frog pins means that as far as the hearts-and-minds struggle is concerned, they won. They have a semblance of legitimacy from which to ponder, hey, why not put Americans first, right? Meanwhile their most extreme members already considered him a sellout, which this event and his reaction thereto have only further estranged them, but in the meanwhile traditional extremists are emboldened to unwittingly further the Nazi cause with violence since the government is now on their side. Attacks are happening. This is the time for white people to step up and make ourselves targets, rather than letting POC and Muslims and blacks and Jews get terrorized and picked off. And yes, the other side will redouble their efforts as well, but this violent spasm can be the first clump of hair falling out during chemo: regrettable and ugly and painful, but fucking necessary for our survival.
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Bal
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Bal » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:48 pm

Me: I mean this

You: No, you mean this, which has many repercussions you didn't consider

Me: That's because that's not what I meant

You: Yes it is.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Rico » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:49 pm

If the ones who won't admit it openly are too scared to admit it openly because they're going to get punched in the fucking face, that does a pretty good job of effectively neutering the movement. It won't die but nothing can accomplish that; if it can't actively do anything that's the same thing.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Defenestration » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:49 pm

Mongrel wrote:I mean we're just back to the case of "What about the ones who won't admit it openly?"

No we're not. If they're not admitting it openly, there is no sense in worrying about it. They are not espousing hate or foolish views. As many others have said, if they keep their views to themselves, they will not be punched.

Is your whole thing just an inability to commit fully to one side?
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Rico » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:50 pm

Bal wrote:Me: I mean this

You: No, you mean this, which has many repercussions you didn't consider

Me: That's because that's not what I meant

You: Yes it is.

Alternately:
Nazi: I mean I'm a Nazi.
You: But who defines a Nazi really?
Nazi: Me, maybe? I am one!
You: But what would a Court of Law say to that???

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Bal
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Bal » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:51 pm

Yes, precisely that too.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby pacobird » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:57 pm

Mongrel wrote:I mean we're just back to the case of "What about the ones who won't admit it openly?" if that's the majority of Nazis, the problem doesn't go away by just "taking out" the declared ones. So then you have to start making decisions if you want to keep going.


Well, what about the ones who won't admit it openly? A genocidal nationalist who keeps his views entirely to himself is, if not harmless, close enough to harmless to not bother with.

Also, I know you're arguing with a dozen people here and our lines are all a little different, but would it help if I said that I think punching a Nazi isn't less of a crime than punching anyone else (though I obviously think it's a crime the violation of which, in this case, is morally correct) and the government should not be the one punching Nazis? Like, this is why you don't take photos of the black bloc?
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:06 pm

Look, to all of the above, let's go back a step.

Bal posted

"I'm totally NOT a Nazi but please read my essay on killing all the blacks as a means of social engineering, not that we would, just a thought experiment"


So we've already got a situation where someone is denying being a Nazi but posting something hateful. Now Bal's example is an exaggerated one to make his point.

What about those who don't make it so plain? Like I asked. Is Trump a Nazi by this standard? What about Pat McCrory? Shit people aren't even 100% sure about Bannon, though whatever he is, it's fucking evil, capital-N Nazi or not. Hell, Tom Price represents a literal existential threat to millions.

These are all horrible people. They are saying things a Nazi would be happy to agree with and endorse. Does this make them Nazis? If not, do we punch them anyway? Where does all this punching begin and end?

Defenestration wrote:Is your whole thing just an inability to commit fully to one side?

Again with the implications that somehow I'm a Nazi sympathizer? I *am* committed fully to your side. We are having a disagreement of means and ways.
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Mongrel
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:11 pm

pacobird wrote:Also, I know you're arguing with a dozen people here and our lines are all a little different, but would it help if I said that I think punching a Nazi isn't less of a crime than punching anyone else (though I obviously think it's a crime the violation of which, in this case, is morally correct) and the government should not be the one punching Nazis? Like, this is why you don't take photos of the black bloc?

Yeah, I'm on board with that.

I do think there ARE things a responsible government should be doing about domestic Nazis. It's not "ignore them". Taking the high road with McCarthy and pretending he was a little boy who would just go away if ignored was one of Ike's worst mistakes.

And it sure as fuck isn't "encourage them", as it appears Trump is poised to do.
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Rico
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Rico » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:30 pm

Mongrel wrote:What about those who don't make it so plain?

If they're not a Nazi but their espoused views are close enough to Nazism that they get caught in the right-crossfire, too fucking bad maybe have views farther away from Nazism seems like a pretty easy idea. No, this is not an invitation to derail with talking about what happens if you slide 500 feet farther down that slope away from being a Nazi.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:40 pm

Well, I already covered that derail previously. Obviously I don't think that it'll stop so cleanly and I think this is a valid instance to fear a slippery slope. Fine, we don't agree and can leave off this part of the discussion - no point in us all going back and forth forever since none of us is taking up arms tonight.
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Bal
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Bal » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:41 pm

I think you're too caught up with the word "Nazi" here. What we're really talking about is White Nationalists. Some of whom fancy the Nazis, but all of whom are dangerous, and incompatible with our society.

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Defenestration
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Defenestration » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:51 pm

Did... Did he just seriously accuse me of calling him a Nazi sympathizer? Well, fuck you too Mongrel. At most I was *accusing* you of being equivocal between punching and pacifism in an extremely irritating way that doesn't further discourse in a meaningful way.

Mongrel is just a giant troll that repeats slippery slope over and over again, got it. Peace out.

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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Sharkey » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:04 pm

By the look of that exchange I'd say he misunderstood which line you were talking about.

Let's all assume good faith here. Especially given that we've basically agreed how to slice the pie, even if we're not completely of one mind if we look at the cut on the fucking Planck scale.
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Joxam » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:08 pm

I mean I stopped assuming good faith two pages ago when he said we were "happily cackling away" about someone punching a man in the face, like any of us involved in this fucking conversation want to be in this position.

The position of most of us finding something that we finally cannot condemn violence against.

Yup, yucking it up over here.
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Joxam
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Re: Pros and Cons of Punching a Nazi Just Square in the Dick

Postby Joxam » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:12 pm

As if laughing because someone synced up the punch to The Boss is the same as somehow enjoying this shit.
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