Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

zaratustra
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby zaratustra » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:05 am

what I distinctly recall happening to 4chan was that the ambient bigotry got sloowly cranked up as the more socially presentable people moved to twitter or reddit, and people from actual extremist sites realized it was open bar night.

Reddit is on the initial steps of this, but there's no more respectable site for people to leak to. Yet.

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Grath
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Grath » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:58 am

zaratustra wrote:what I distinctly recall happening to 4chan was that the ambient bigotry got sloowly cranked up as the more socially presentable people moved to twitter or reddit, and people from actual extremist sites realized it was open bar night.

Reddit is on the initial steps of this, but there's no more respectable site for people to leak to. Yet.

Clearly we just have to make Brontoforum that more respectable site.

Also, I would argue that it seems like Reddit's admins are at least half-heartedly trying to fight back on this with things like banning the subreddits that cross enough lines (jailbait, ones that don't even try to hide their hate speech, etc) and setting up /r/popular/ which is "posts from most of the site but with conveniently preset don't-show-me-Trump-posts filters." (To be fair: A quick check of /r/popular/ still shows something about shitting on Amy Schumer's comedy in the top 50 posts so there's still bigotry seeping through the cracks from them not doing enough.)

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sei
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby sei » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:09 am

Calling PDP an anti-semite threatens to delegitimize the term. It will make it harder for actual, intentional acts of anti-semitism more to be taken seriously when they finally show up, because people will numb to cries of "wolf." (I get the normalization thing, but it's not like PDP got some measured talking to about the dangers of it. He got that WSJ article that decontextualized what he said, instead.)

(I need to read the Hulk thing later. I want to come back to it. Me mentioning this will make Ziiro or Defenestration remind me, I hope.)

zaratustra wrote:what I distinctly recall happening to 4chan was that the ambient bigotry got sloowly cranked up as the more socially presentable people moved to twitter or reddit, and people from actual extremist sites realized it was open bar night.

Reddit is on the initial steps of this, but there's no more respectable site for people to leak to. Yet.

HEY ZARA HOW ABOUT TUMBLR THEY ARE RESPECTABLE AND NOT ABLIST OR RACIST OR SHITLORDS

Imzy probably aspires to be that place. It's all but their mission statement.

Reddit has serious cesspool communities, but the subreddit system is brilliant at letting you, as a user, filter out the shitty users (be they genocidal racists or the fucking fun police). I never have to see shit from /r/The_Donald, /r/theredpill, /r/gamergate/, etc., because I don't need that shit in my life, and reddit lets you wall a lot of poison out of your personally curated garden.

The ability to filter makes Imzy seem pretty unnecessary, Maybe that perception reflects my privilege or lack of empathy, but the whole thing strikes me as unnecessary. (And a cash grab. See the tipping system.)
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Grath
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Grath » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:02 am

sei wrote:Reddit has serious cesspool communities, but the subreddit system is brilliant at letting you, as a user, filtering out the shitty users (be they genocidal racists or the fucking fun police). I never have to see shit from /r/The_Donald, /r/theredpill, /r/gamergate/, etc., because I don't need that shit in my life, and reddit lets you wall a lot of poison out of your personally curated garden.

Agreed. Also, I occasionally see people being shitty (the terrible people do still show up in not-usually-shitty subreddits at times) but Reddit Enhancement Suite extension lets me tag the shitty people with a note that they're a shitty person and to disregard their opinions.

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Büge
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Büge » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:39 am

Thad wrote:
Büge wrote:I think South Park laid a lot of groundwork for that. It was edgy, it was juvenile, and it was peppered with casual antisemetism.


Of course, the crucial distinction that the antisemites in the audience missed (or ignored) is that Matt Stone is Jewish. There's a qualitative difference between a Jew making jokes about Jews and a goy doing it.


Matt Stone may have written it, but you never saw the Jewish character making the jokes. It was always Cartman, the one that people loved to quote.

zaratustra
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby zaratustra » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:23 am

Grath wrote:Also, I would argue that it seems like Reddit's admins are at least half-heartedly trying to fight back on this


Yeah, that's fantastic, but you still get posts from things named "BlackPeopleTwitter" on the front page on the regular.

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Brentai
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Brentai » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:02 am

It was always Cartman, the one that people loved to quote.


If anything became a problem it's people forgetting that Cartman is supposed to be absolute garbage. But secretly, I think even most "nice" people feel they're more like Cartman than like Stan.

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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Mongrel » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:51 pm

Well, that's an old idea with a long dramatic tradition.

It's like the way the audience identifies with and even cheers for Tuco in The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. The Good and The Bad are almost otherworldly avatars, but Tuco, the Ugly, is a human - he has a real name, we meet his family, we learn about his background, he expresses the widest and most genuine range of emotion. He wins some and he loses some. Even though we also learn he's despicable, his exaggeratedly long list of crimes is played as a joke.
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Z%rø
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Z%rø » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:00 pm

I know you use reddit in that way, sei, but a lot of people simply browse /all, and for basically all of 2016 it was a radioactive wasteland because the_donald had learned how to game the system and the admins were, again, too spineless to dole out punishment.

I'd actually go so far as to say that the reddit admins have some measure of blame for the trump administration. /r/the_donald was a major organization and staging ground for their movement that continually broke site rules about doxing, harassment, and vote manipulation, but they were too spineless to straight out ban it for fear of blowback.

(Sure, they could've gone to /pol/ if the_donald was banned, but at least then it'd have a less public face. Not to mention that there's also the problem of moot/moot2 not banning /pol/)
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nosimpleway
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby nosimpleway » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:13 pm

Brentai wrote:If anything became a problem it's people forgetting that Cartman is supposed to be absolute garbage. But secretly, I think even most "nice" people feel they're more like Cartman than like Stan.

I remember a quote from Parker or Stone along the lines of "People assume that <one of us> is Kyle and <other of us> is Stan, but in reality we're both Cartman."

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sei
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby sei » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:18 pm

zaratustra wrote:
Grath wrote:Also, I would argue that it seems like Reddit's admins are at least half-heartedly trying to fight back on this


Yeah, that's fantastic, but you still get posts from things named "BlackPeopleTwitter" on the front page on the regular.


/r/blackpeopletwitter was a celebration of African American humor. (It may have corrupted over time. I'm not subbed.)

/r/coontown, on the other hand...

Z%rø wrote:I know you use reddit in that way, sei, but a lot of people simply browse /all, and for basically all of 2016 it was a radioactive wasteland because the_donald had learned how to game the system and the admins were, again, too spineless to dole out punishment.

I'd actually go so far as to say that the reddit admins have some measure of blame for the trump administration. /r/the_donald was a major organization and staging ground for their movement that continually broke site rules about doxing, harassment, and vote manipulation, but they were too spineless to straight out ban it for fear of blowback.

(Sure, they could've gone to /pol/ if the_donald was banned, but at least then it'd have a less public face. Not to mention that there's also the problem of moot/moot2 not banning /pol/)


Yeah. They were pretty passive.

The doxxing and shit deserves punishment. I'm not sure whether they used kiddie gloves on /r/the_donald because it was a good containment board or whether it was because they pussed out.

I don't see reddit administrators as having intentionally played kingmaker for the rich asshole. (Especially not Pao, who didn't step down until July.) I'm also not really comfortable with the idea of social media coming in and busting up communities dedicated to political causes. In principle, I think that a pro-rich asshole subreddit has as much of a right to exist as a pro-Sanders or pro-HRC one. /r/the_donald may have involved some unique abuses, but even if it hadn't participated in doxxing and harassment*, the outcome might have been the same. (Though, they closed some related subreddits.)

My first impulse is to say "reddit admins should have been faster about implementing the now-present subreddit filter and frontpage algorithm tweaks," but the damage had long since been done. The filter change has the same problem you mentioned before: people who aren't signed into reddit / aren't proactive about their own information hygiene will still be exposed.

The frontpage algo may somewhat mitigate it, but I still see shit from political reddits like /r/enoughtrumpspam, /r/esist, etc. on the homepage. So, reddit clearly isn't specifically trying to keep political stuff off of /r/all.

reddit dropping the ball on the /r/the_donald situation may wind up a case study for other community sites going forward.




*Vote manipulation and brigading are common. I'm not sure whether reddit has a solid way of differentiating between vote manipulation and hive-mind behavior.
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sei
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby sei » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:16 pm

Büge wrote:This whole conversation reminds me of an article that Film Crit Hulk built out of a series of tweets he wrote after the PDP revelation:

[ ... ]

And the article: P.C. Culture Vs. The Big Joke


Article was thought-provoking. Kind of feel that PC culture stuff deserves its own separate topic. I want to leave this here, re the PC shit, though:

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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby sei » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:33 pm

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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Büge » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:54 pm

sei wrote:


I don't care how old you are or what barriers you broke. You don't call someone something they don't want to be called. You apologize and move on.

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sei
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby sei » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:10 pm

If you move on, will Twitter?
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Mongrel » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:39 pm

Büge wrote:
sei wrote:


I don't care how old you are or what barriers you broke. You don't call someone something they don't want to be called. You apologize and move on.

What if it was RuPaul describing herself?

Just like the old debate about black people using nigger (and some other blacks being legitimately offended at this), the answer is not so easy or simple and there's an difference in context between derogatory usage by an out-group member versus reclamation or ownership by an in-group member.

However, I don't deny that if RuPaul called someone else that, they asked to not be called that, and the RuPaul kept going, that that would be wrong and in that case stopping and apologizing is the right thing.

Regardless, the whole thing is a good example of the way these things quickly escalate to adversarial between theoretical allies, in much the manner the FilmHulk article is describing. The left and well-meaning people in general have been tearing themselves to absolute pieces over this sort of thing and the right just laughs and keeps egging it on.
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sei
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby sei » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:57 pm

Mongrel, you may want to look up the circumstance of that actual exchange, since it's not hypothetical.

Charles = RuPaul, in the quote below.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tonymerevick/logo-tv-distances-itself-from-rupal?utm_term=.qy3bBz2y1#.xq1jlXZ8B wrote:“Does the word ‘tranny’ bother me? No. I love the word ‘tranny,’” Charles said in the interview.

“Don’t you dare tell me what I can do or what I can say” Charles said. “It’s just words. Yeah, words do hurt. ‘Words hurt me.’ You know what? Bitch, you need to get stronger. You really do. Because you know what? If you think, if you’re upset by something I said, you have bigger problems than you think. I’m telling you this.”

Logo TV distanced itself from Charles’ remarks through a spokesperson who told BuzzFeed, “These comments did not come from Logo. We are committed to supporting the entire LGBT community and will not feature any anti-trans rhetoric on our shows.”


The stuff involving RP is vaguely reminiscent of The Great Dickwolf Incident of 2010 (more details).
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Bal
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Bal » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:42 pm

Büge wrote:I don't care how old you are or what barriers you broke. You don't call someone something they don't want to be called. You apologize and move on.


Oh fuck clean off with that shit. TERFs don't like being called TERFs, but I'm still going to call them that because they're fucking dangerous assholes. I am not going to spend my life updating my index of the latest PC terms for everything when I could instead be doing something useful like, I don't know, discussing the issues facing the oppressed in ways that matter.

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Mongrel
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Mongrel » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:13 pm

sei wrote:Mongrel, you may want to look up the circumstance of that actual exchange, since it's not hypothetical.

Charles = RuPaul, in the quote below.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/tonymerevick/logo-tv-distances-itself-from-rupal?utm_term=.qy3bBz2y1#.xq1jlXZ8B wrote:“Does the word ‘tranny’ bother me? No. I love the word ‘tranny,’” Charles said in the interview.

“Don’t you dare tell me what I can do or what I can say” Charles said. “It’s just words. Yeah, words do hurt. ‘Words hurt me.’ You know what? Bitch, you need to get stronger. You really do. Because you know what? If you think, if you’re upset by something I said, you have bigger problems than you think. I’m telling you this.”

Logo TV distanced itself from Charles’ remarks through a spokesperson who told BuzzFeed, “These comments did not come from Logo. We are committed to supporting the entire LGBT community and will not feature any anti-trans rhetoric on our shows.”


The stuff involving RP is vaguely reminiscent of The Great Dickwolf Incident of 2010 (more details).

So it was self-referential. Sort of.

Seems to be the Dickwolves (oh my god I'd managed to forget that nonsense entirely, damn you) is actually not the same at all. Least of which, neither of the PA guys are rape victims, IIRC.

Again, in-group usage is different from out-group usage. There are lots of precedents. Yes, people in the in-group will argue and disagree and both will have valid points.
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Büge
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Re: Gamerbois Gone Wild(ly Racist)

Postby Büge » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:39 pm

Bal wrote:Oh fuck clean off with that shit. TERFs don't like being called TERFs, but I'm still going to call them that because they're fucking dangerous assholes. I am not going to spend my life updating my index of the latest PC terms for everything when I could instead be doing something useful like, I don't know, discussing the issues facing the oppressed in ways that matter.


I never said don't call out racism and bigotry. I'm saying that if you go around casually using bigoted terms (e.g. tranny), you should be prepared to live with the consequences.

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