Election 2020 - Here we go again

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Thad
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:02 pm

beatbandito wrote:All an enumerator is required to get is the number of persons that occupy the residency more than half the year. Yes, I see that technically it's illegal to misrepresent your answers, but what the fuck is that? There's just binary male/female gender options. Who's the one to determine you're misidentifying if you're trans?


The binary sex options are some bullshit and I wholeheartedly acknowledge that.

That's not an argument for me or you, who are, to the best of my knowledge, also a cis male (and I apologize if I'm incorrect about that), to mark "female" on the census form.

If you believe that you're Native American and someone comes after you for that and you so much as own a dream catcher you have a lawsuit.


Sorry, it sounded like you just said that white people should mark themselves as Native American on the census and justify it with dreamcatcher ownership. I'm...gonna go ahead and ask you to clarify if that's really what you meant, because from where I'm sitting, that sounds pretty bad.

I think another thing you're missing with your argument that people should just claim to be a different race is that representation is a zero-sum game. If people misreport racial demographics en masse, then that's going to affect how district lines are drawn. A bunch of white people claiming to be black or Native American or some other demographic is going to disenfranchise people who actually belong to those demographics.

"this agency won't share your information" and "other agencies have your information anyway" aren't just both bad reasons to give in to sharing more than you would have been required to if someone in person was asking,


I think "required" here is an argument of what's required by law versus what's required in fact. You're legally obligated to answer the questions on the census, though obviously someone who's asking you in person, or on a pen-and-paper form, can't force you to respond to all of them before proceeding.

(I guess I am kinda curious about whether all the authentication's done on the backend or just the frontend. If anybody wants to try to fuck around with the site JS and submit the form without everything filled out, I'm not saying you should do that but I am sort of curious whether it's competently-designed enough to not let you do that.)

The online census' refusal to let you move on without answering every question is what will ultimately impact the number of people who are counted when some people choose not to do that, and I think that's a bad, scam-like way to move forward. Do get counted. The rest of the form is for you to determine.


If you see it as literally a choice between "lie about your identity" and "don't respond to the census at all", then I guess sure, lying about your identity is the lesser-evil option.

I'd still strongly advise that cis/het white dudes not pretend to belong to another race or sex, because that amounts to ratfucking the demographic numbers that determine congressional representation.

If anyone who's not a cis/het white dude feels that including their honest information is going to make them a target, hey, do what you gotta do. In particular, if you've got undocumented folks living in your household, I can understand why you might not want to disclose that information, or even use a name that sounds Hispanic.

If you feel you have to lie about your race, your sex, or any other demographic information, for the sake of your safety, I'm not going to tell anyone not to do that. But I'm very skeptical that you or I need to do that for our safety, and what's more, if a bunch of people like us do it, that's going to hurt people who are already vulnerable.

Caithness wrote:
Thad wrote: I don't know how representative I am of people who've voted third-party in past elections, but there it is.


I voted for Nader in 2004 and Stein in 2012. I will write in Sanders if Biden is the nominee.

I don't have the moral authority to condemn anybody for doing that. But I'll note that one of the things that convinced me to back Kerry in '04 rather than voting Nader a second time was something Tom Tomorrow (who backed Nader in 2000) said. Paraphrased as best I can: "Yes, there's a cancer on American democracy. But if you've got a cancer patient who's just been in a car accident and is bleeding everywhere, you need to treat the injuries before you worry about the cancer." I fucking hate the prospect of Biden being president, but on balance, if it comes down to a choice between someone who's going to close the baby jails and the guy who opened the baby jails, I'm gonna mark the box for "close the baby jails."

I don't know what state you're in. If it's a swing state, I hope you'll consider that your vote's more important than most people's. If you're in California or Texas, I guess go nuts and write in whoever you want; just make sure you fill out the rest of the ballot while you're at it.

It does bear noting that, while looking at Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania is a useful shorthand, this election probably won't come down to the same state breakdown as the last one. I still suspect that if Arizona goes blue then it'll just be running up the score in a decisive win for Biden. But these are strange times and there's a very good chance we'll have two Democratic senators come January, so I'm less inclined to say "Arizona isn't going to go blue, and if it does, it won't be the state that swings the election" than I have been the last five times.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:50 pm

Thad wrote:But I'll note that one of the things that convinced me to back Kerry in '04 rather than voting Nader a second time was something Tom Tomorrow (who backed Nader in 2000) said. Paraphrased as best I can: "Yes, there's a cancer on American democracy. But if you've got a cancer patient who's just been in a car accident and is bleeding everywhere, you need to treat the injuries before you worry about the cancer."

Reminds me of a bit of history. When Joe Louis signed up for the then-segregated army to fight in WWII, reporters asked him how he felt he could justify that, his reply was that "Lots of things wrong with America, but Hitler ain't going to fix them."
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:25 pm

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Friday
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Friday » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:31 pm

as a precaution

he's fine

he's shaking everyone's hand, you'll be glad to know, obviously
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby zaratustra » Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:32 pm

"It is understood Johnson was moved to the intensive care unit just short of an hour and a half ago.

The decision was made by his medical team after his condition worsened over the course of Monday. The prime minister is understood to be conscious and to have been moved as a precaution in case he needs ventilation."

24 hours from now: prime minister to be buried as a precaution

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beatbandito
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby beatbandito » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:22 pm

Thad wrote:Sorry, it sounded like you just said that white people should mark themselves as Native American on the census and justify it with dreamcatcher ownership. I'm...gonna go ahead and ask you to clarify if that's really what you meant, because from where I'm sitting, that sounds pretty bad.

Yes. I'm saying that any self-imposed level of self-identification is enough to justify a response on the census without federal legal issue.

Thad wrote:I'd still strongly advise that cis/het white dudes not pretend to belong to another race or sex, because that amounts to ratfucking the demographic numbers that determine congressional representation.

If anyone who's not a cis/het white dude feels that including their honest information is going to make them a target, hey, do what you gotta do. In particular, if you've got undocumented folks living in your household, I can understand why you might not want to disclose that information, or even use a name that sounds Hispanic.

Sorry, it sounded like you just said that white people should fill out all information accurately and other ethnic groups shouldn't. I'm...gonna go ahead and ask you to clarify if that's really what you meant, because from where I'm sitting, that sounds pretty bad.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Grath » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:58 pm

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(I said fuck it and just used the online form and answered truthfully.)

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:32 pm

zaratustra wrote:"It is understood Johnson was moved to the intensive care unit just short of an hour and a half ago.

The decision was made by his medical team after his condition worsened over the course of Monday. The prime minister is understood to be conscious and to have been moved as a precaution in case he needs ventilation."

24 hours from now: prime minister to be buried as a precaution


And just to provide some context to just how little benefit Trump is receiving from the Rally 'Round the Flag Effect: Boris Johnson was polling at 72% as of a week ago.

This fucking idiot, the "herd immunity" guy, the "I shook hands with everybody" guy, got a thirty-point bounce. Trump's up, what, three points?

beatbandito wrote:
Thad wrote:Sorry, it sounded like you just said that white people should mark themselves as Native American on the census and justify it with dreamcatcher ownership. I'm...gonna go ahead and ask you to clarify if that's really what you meant, because from where I'm sitting, that sounds pretty bad.

Yes. I'm saying that any self-imposed level of self-identification is enough to justify a response on the census without federal legal issue.


That's...something pretty different from "white people should mark themselves as Native American on the census and justify it with dreamcatcher ownership." If you're merely saying that a white person could claim native ancestry and avoid a federal fine by claiming to have sincerely believed it, I think that's probably a true statement.

If you're actually advocating that people do that, on purpose, then no, I'm against that.

Thad wrote:I'd still strongly advise that cis/het white dudes not pretend to belong to another race or sex, because that amounts to ratfucking the demographic numbers that determine congressional representation.

If anyone who's not a cis/het white dude feels that including their honest information is going to make them a target, hey, do what you gotta do. In particular, if you've got undocumented folks living in your household, I can understand why you might not want to disclose that information, or even use a name that sounds Hispanic.

Sorry, it sounded like you just said that white people should fill out all information accurately and other ethnic groups shouldn't. I'm...gonna go ahead and ask you to clarify if that's really what you meant, because from where I'm sitting, that sounds pretty bad.


See, here's the thing.

When I asked you to confirm that I was reading you correctly? I was being sincere. I wanted to make absolutely certain I wasn't misinterpreting your statement as something much worse than you intended it to be. (And given your response, I'm still not entirely sure whether you were just making a point about legal liability or actually advocating that behavior.)

Now you're using my words against me in a way that's insincere, to try to score Internet Points, which suggests that you are not treating this subject with the seriousness that it deserves.

No, Beat. I am not saying that "white people should fill out all information accurately and other ethnic groups shouldn't." I'm saying that people who are not cis/het white males have a different, and more pressing, set of concerns with regard to the current government than people who are. While I would recommend, and have repeatedly recommended, everyone fill out the census honestly, I have a lot more sympathy for some demographics being reluctant to do so than others.

You have not addressed my most substantive criticism, that when white people lie about their ethnicity on the census it ratfucks other demographic groups' congressional representation, at all. You seem more interested in playing word games than in considering whether there might be real problems with what you are advocating.

And look, the record will show that I'm a big fan of playing word games. But now is not the time and this is not the topic. This isn't a game. It's not about you or me or arguing on the Internet. Put your ego aside and think about the potential repercussions of the position you're advocating. For a couple hypothetical examples off the top of my head:

1) The people in charge of redistricting are honest, and want to create districts that give a voice to minority demographics. Because a bunch of white people lied about their ethnicity on the census, white neighborhoods appear to be more diverse than they actually are, and are included in districts that are meant to represent minority voices. Result: minority voting power dilluted accidentally, by well-meaning people who trusted the numbers.

2) The people in charge of redistricting are dishonest, and want to create districts that don't give a voice to minority demographics. Because a bunch of white people lied about their ethnicity on the census, white neighborhoods appear to be more diverse than they actually are. The people in charge of redistricting are pretty sure that those census numbers are wrong, and intentionally include those neighborhoods in districts alongside minority neighborhoods. Result: minority voting power dilluted deliberately, by ratfuckers who didn't trust the numbers but knew they could use them -- and if they get sued, the ratfuckers can plausibly claim that this couldn't have been racially-motivated gerrymandering, we've got the census numbers right here to prove it.

This is serious shit, man, for reasons that go a lot deeper than whether you can talk your way out of a $500 fine (and yeah, I acknowledge I'm the guy who brought up the illegality and the fine, but I've brought up other, more important reasons it's a bad idea, too). It's not just that I think it's unseemly for a white guy to lie and claim indigenous ancestry, and then defend it by claiming he really believed it (though I do think that's unseemly), it's that if large numbers of white people were to do that, it would create a false perception of the indigenous population and its distribution, and this would serve to disenfranchise indigenous groups even more than they already are. If you pretend to belong to an ethnic group that you actually don't, you're not helping that group get more representation; you're taking representation away from them. There are only 435 House districts, and districting is zero sum; the more people any one demographic in a district has, the less power other demographic voting blocs have in that district.

I don't think you should lie on the census.

I acknowledge that if you do lie, lying about your name is probably not going to do any harm in terms of demographic representation.

But lying about your race absolutely can. If "don't do that, it's illegal" isn't reason enough for you not to do it, then please consider that you shouldn't do it because you may be taking representation away from people who actually belong to that demographic.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I hope I've made it clearly.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Caithness » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:46 pm

My dad says when he was a census worker in 2000, they were specifically trained to write down what people reported their race to be, even if they were sure it was a lie.

Thad wrote:I fucking hate the prospect of Biden being president, but on balance, if it comes down to a choice between someone who's going to close the baby jails and the guy who opened the baby jails, I'm gonna mark the box for "close the baby jails."


Biden is not the guy who's going to close the baby jails, he's the vice president of the guy who opened them.

I live in Maryland, so not a swing state.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:13 pm

I have to say that at this point I'm not sure any DNC-approved candidate will close the baby jails.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby beatbandito » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:25 pm

Thad wrote:See, here's the thing.

When I asked you to confirm that I was reading you correctly? I was being sincere. I wanted to make absolutely certain I wasn't misinterpreting your statement as something much worse than you intended it to be. (And given your response, I'm still not entirely sure whether you were just making a point about legal liability or actually advocating that behavior.)

Now you're using my words against me in a way that's insincere, to try to score Internet Points, which suggests that you are not treating this subject with the seriousness that it deserves.

oh shit, sorry

I forgot when you call out my use of wording it's due diligence because otherwise it would be obvious I'm using the opportunity to assert terrible societal opinions, but when I call out yours its rhetorical insincerity.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Joxam » Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:53 pm

Caithness wrote:My dad says when he was a census worker in 2000, they were specifically trained to write down what people reported their race to be, even if they were sure it was a lie.


Mostly that's because its very hard to determine someone's race and the idea that you are 'sure its a lie' is stupid as hell.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby mharr » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:08 pm

Well this is unpleasantly like staying up all night listening to the family fighting downstairs.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Joxam » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:13 pm

Perhaps I sounded mean when I wasn't trying to. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone here, or even anyone's dad, was stupid. Just the idea that someone's race is always obvious is stupid. I have absolutely met people who would think someone was lying about their race on the census though so I get why they have that training.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:23 pm

Joxam wrote:Perhaps I sounded mean when I wasn't trying to. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone here, or even anyone's dad, was stupid. Just the idea that someone's race is always obvious is stupid. I have absolutely met people who would think someone was lying about their race on the census though so I get why they have that training.

FWIW, I didn't take your post as mean and read you as saying the idea was stupid, not Caithness' dad.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:43 pm

Caithness wrote:My dad says when he was a census worker in 2000, they were specifically trained to write down what people reported their race to be, even if they were sure it was a lie.

Thad wrote:I fucking hate the prospect of Biden being president, but on balance, if it comes down to a choice between someone who's going to close the baby jails and the guy who opened the baby jails, I'm gonna mark the box for "close the baby jails."


Biden is not the guy who's going to close the baby jails, he's the vice president of the guy who opened them.


There's a hell of a lot to criticize about Obama's approach to border enforcement (and, not for nothin', Sanders has made some poor calls in the past as well). But claiming it's equivalent to Trump's is absurd. Just a look through the subheaders in the article you linked gives a pretty good overview of the significant differences between the two approaches:

Both presidents prosecuted many border crossers. But Trump’s “zero tolerance” policy created family separation.

Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice. Obama did not.

Both presidents housed “unaccompanied” minors in temporary facilities — but under Obama, they’d pretty much all arrived in the US unaccompanied

Obama detained families together — until the courts stepped in


If you really can't see a significant difference between the Obama Administration and the Trump Administration, on immigration of all things, I really don't know what to tell you. Obama was a typical politician; Trump is a white supremacist. I'd much rather have a leader who isn't a typical politician, but if the choice is between typical politician and white supremacist, I guess that's the choice we've got.

All but officially now. Because Sanders has dropped out of the race.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Brentai » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:34 pm

Sigh. Welp, here's to half a year of watching two extremely cranky, brain-addled, wispy haired old white guys going back and forth endlessly about every little thing they think is wrong with us in a space completely separated from the general... wait a minute...

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Caithness » Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:31 pm

The difference between the Obama and Trump administrations on immigration is one of degree, not type, and the degree is not large enough to be significant to me.

Typical politician is a subset of white supremacist.

The reason I didn’t vote for Kerry in 2004 is because he was the closest possible Democrat to being the exact same person as George W. Bush. Biden is the closest to being the exact same person as Trump.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Upthorn » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:02 pm

Well, no, Bloomberg was closer to being the same exact person as trump, but he wasn't actually interested in the presidency, he only wanted to make sure Sanders didn't win.
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby mharr » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:33 pm

Not actually being interested in the presidency makes him more like Trump as well, doesn't it?

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