Election 2020 - Here we go again

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zaratustra
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby zaratustra » Fri May 29, 2020 7:15 pm

vote biden he'll probably die in office

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Mongrel
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Fri May 29, 2020 9:41 pm

Man, I'm not even sure he'll make it to the election, let alone pulling a William Henry Harrison.
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Niku
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Niku » Sat May 30, 2020 6:18 am

guys it’s ghoulish to speculate shit like that about people

it gets innocent people’s hopes up
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Thad
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:22 am

Steve King loses primary.

I don't have a lot of hope that a district that elected him nine times will replace him with somebody who's actually good, but this at least proves that there's still such a thing as being too openly racist for Republicans. As long as you're not the president.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:14 pm

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:15 am

Polling getting more interesting than ever in 2020.



Haha, suck it Mitch.
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KingRoyal
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby KingRoyal » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:23 pm

Upthorn wrote:Last night, I had a conversation with a close friend which changed my mind on Biden 100%, and significantly increased my chances of surviving the next couple of years.

The basic point he impressed upon me was that participating in broken electoral politics, and participating in direct action are not mutually exclusive.

And the Democratic candidate is a lot more likely to surrender in the face of public pressure than the Republican incumbent.


Like how Obama ended the wars, closed down Guantanamo, supported Occupy Wall Street and Standing Rock, got Flint, MI clean water, prosecuted even one murderous cop, and do I really need to go on.

I am not convinced of the "Dems will actually listen" argument. And I get a distinct impression from a lot of liberals that their main concern is getting Trump out of their heads so they can go back to being asleep on these topics. Like, they have actual conspiracy theories that the Black Lives Matter movement is a product of Russia.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:02 pm

KingRoyal wrote:
Upthorn wrote:Last night, I had a conversation with a close friend which changed my mind on Biden 100%, and significantly increased my chances of surviving the next couple of years.

The basic point he impressed upon me was that participating in broken electoral politics, and participating in direct action are not mutually exclusive.

And the Democratic candidate is a lot more likely to surrender in the face of public pressure than the Republican incumbent.


Like how Obama ended the wars, closed down Guantanamo, supported Occupy Wall Street and Standing Rock, got Flint, MI clean water, prosecuted even one murderous cop, and do I really need to go on.

I am not convinced of the "Dems will actually listen" argument. And I get a distinct impression from a lot of liberals that their main concern is getting Trump out of their heads so they can go back to being asleep on these topics. Like, they have actual conspiracy theories that the Black Lives Matter movement is a product of Russia.

The first part makes the Biden support ineffectual but not worrisome.

The second part... yeaaaaahhh I wish I could say I hadn't seen that stuff either, but...

It is true that no matter how bad Biden is, Upthorn's friend is correct that voting out Trump isn't a BAD thing and doesn't preclude participating in direct action - but yeah, some people are not thinking about it those terms; they just want to back to sleep. Keeping everyone exhausted is part of the right's playbook after all.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby KingRoyal » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:59 pm

This is just what, the fourth or fifth election in my life in which WE HAVE TO STOP THE GOP THEN WE CAN START TO DO SOMETHING and then Obama happened and I watched the Democratic party do nothing but pass a Republican healthcare bill. Then, after that, what significant things did Obama do?

While I may be a cynic on these things at this point,I don't want to discourage people from voting for Biden if they think that's best. But, after watching the Dems put more energy into crushing the Sanders campaign than any kind of confrontation with the GOP right before laying down and not even trying to make a difference with Covid relief, AND then to transition to telling protesters that they're actually wrong for their Defund the Police demands... eh, I simply no longer feel that the American electoral system is a valid avenue for change and that the Democrats want to live in the same country Trump does they just don't want people to be so naked racist.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:03 pm

I've seen all that shit too, but I've also seen Bernie Sanders mount two credible campaigns for the Democratic nomination. I'm as cynical about the Democratic Party leadership as ever, but I also remember the days when Howard Dean was considered far-left and guys like Ralph Nader and Dennis Kucinich were the lunatic fringe. I'm not thrilled seeing Sanders come in second, again, but I also recognize that a dozen years ago he'd have maybe won Vermont.

I don't have much nice to say about the party leadership, but I think Democratic voters are moving in the right direction (or rather, the left one). There's still a hell of a lot of work to do, and there are still plenty of conservatives within the party (particularly in the south), but the base has already forced the party into taking some positions the leadership clearly didn't want to. And while I agree that there are some people who are just going to declare "mission accomplished" and go home if Biden wins, I also think there are plenty who are going to say "Okay, now what?"

I still think there's a real danger that we're irrecoverably fucked and can't hold out another generation, between the environmental and economic catastrophes that are coming. But I also think if we do manage to accomplish that, we'll be looking at a very different Democratic Party then than the one we have now.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:51 pm

One thing is that "direct action" could end up taking the form of an insurgency in the Democratic party. They'll be working against the DNC and that's an uphill battle and a half, but once they're out, they're out.

Maybe.

But short of revolution (which, I think would still fail at this point), the only solution maybe a new political party, and that seems like a much longer shot than taking over an existing one.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Friday » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:11 pm

As far as the establishment is concerned, I mean, I don't know what sums it up better than saying the Dems are the "shoot em in the leg" party.

As has been noted a million times by other observers already, the parties of the US aren't the Left and Right, they're the Center and Far Right. And as the Republicans move further and further right in recent years (post-tea party and then post-trump), the Dems do too. So now, I think the most accurate way to describe the parties would be the Moderate Conservatives and the Fascists.

The Republicans are the KKK. The Dems are White Silence.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Brentai » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:45 pm

Since April I've come to see the two parties as Conservative Right and Fascist. We don't even have a Centrist political party any more. The population is still mostly Liberal Left which calls into immediate question what the hell kind of democracy this is.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Mongrel » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:06 pm

On the subject of defunding the police, I saw a very incisive post yesterday: "When Republicans want to defund food stamps or medicare, they call it tax cuts".

Brentai wrote:Since April I've come to see the two parties as Conservative Right and Fascist. We don't even have a Centrist political party any more. The population is still mostly Liberal Left which calls into immediate question what the hell kind of democracy this is.

The kind where Citizens United is accepted as the law of the land.
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:56 pm

Friday wrote:As far as the establishment is concerned, I mean, I don't know what sums it up better than saying the Dems are the "shoot em in the leg" party.

As has been noted a million times by other observers already, the parties of the US aren't the Left and Right, they're the Center and Far Right. And as the Republicans move further and further right in recent years (post-tea party and then post-trump), the Dems do too. So now, I think the most accurate way to describe the parties would be the Moderate Conservatives and the Fascists.

The Republicans are the KKK. The Dems are White Silence.

I think that was absolutely the case 20 years ago, but I can't really watch the last few years of American politics and conclude that the Democratic Party is still moving to the right. They've chosen a couple of absolutely awful presidential candidates, but again, they weren't able to do it without a fight. A goddamn democratic socialist independent came in second place in the last two primaries. And while the same old conservative candidates ultimately won their respective contests, they had to move to the left to do it, at least in their rhetoric.

I think Pelosi did everything she could to avoid an impeachment vote, but once it was clear that was what Democratic voters wanted, she did it.

And we've got politicians like the Squad in office now, and they're popular and influential. What did we have during the Bush Administration? Feingold?

And now there's a bill in the House to curtail qualified immunity. It doesn't go far enough, but there's no goddamn way it would have even come up for debate during the Bill Clinton Administration.

It's not going to pass. I get that; I get the frustration with that, the sense that all this is meaningless because it's not going to result in getting a law passed. But I see tremendous progress that we're even having that conversation. There's been a serious shift in the Overton window. This may be political theater, but at least they're playing to the right audience now.

And I also share Royal's frustration that Obama's biggest accomplishment, with 60ish Democrats in the Senate, was to pass a Republican healthcare bill -- but I also note that that fundamentally changed the parameters of the discussion. There's no longer any debate in the Democratic Party about whether we should have healthcare or not (and not really any effective debate about it in the Republican Party, even); the debate is whether we should expand it modestly or through ambitious wholesale change. And yeah, that's still the wrong fucking debate, and it's insane that we're even having it -- but it's damn-well an improvement over the way things were before.

I agree that the Democratic Party moved hard to the right throughout the '90s and the aughts, but I don't agree that it still is. I think the base has moved significantly to the left, and forced the leadership to inch in that direction.

I'm disgusted by how slowly it's going, but I do see promise in the direction it's going.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Friday » Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:12 pm

I both agree and disagree with you here, because I see signs that the party is moving in BOTH directions at the same time. The trouble is, it seems the ones who have real power to effect change are mostly moving to the right. It's true that the window is getting moved left overall, but it's like...

The left might be winning the social war and the war for information (outside of the 40% Trump Death-cult, anyway) but the right is winning the legislative war and has been for a long time. When I see some REAL LAWS passed that make things better, I will start to come around to "the dems are more left now."

But you're right about the Squad and the other stuff you said, and they may be a sign that REAL LAWS are coming. It's just hard to say "well, the Dems are leftists even though they don't actually enact any leftist policy changes."
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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:39 pm

No, but you also don't see them advocating for stuff like banning gay marriage and deregulating Wall Street so much lately. When I say they're moving to the left, keep in mind I mean it relative to where they were 20 years ago.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby KingRoyal » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:25 am

My interpretation of the Democratic party primary was that while there was an insurgency from the Left to try and push for stronger positions on healthcare, immigration, housing, etc, Joe Biden's victory was assisted a group of Never Trump Republicans intent on a hostile takeover of the party. Dems have embraced George W. Bush at this point and this is the third candidate out of four they've fielded since 2000 who voted for the Iraq War while the GOP has only had two candidates out of four.

And while it is true that the majority of the base of the party actually does support a single-payer, government run health program (as evidenced by actually asking people), the candidate himself is opposed to that, has openly stated his intention to veto it, and the only thing he's offered is that we should consider keeping the market-based, employer provided healthcare system and maybe introduce a public option. Which was what Obama proposed in 2008. And I don't think Biden even intends to follow through on that.

We have been here before. Democratic voters may still be the broad coalition of left to center-right that it's always been, but it's fairly obvious the leadership is now firmly in Republican policy territory, but happy to have a coat of Diversity paint to put on everything.

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Re: Election 2020 - Here we go again

Postby Thad » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:46 pm

KingRoyal wrote:Dems have embraced George W. Bush at this point and this is the third candidate out of four they've fielded since 2000 who voted for the Iraq War while the GOP has only had two candidates out of four.

I mean, yes, it's technically true that Mitt Romney and Donald Trump did not vote for the Iraq War, but that's a little bit of a misleading way of framing it, isn't it?

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