Not if it's bitter. Let's Play Suikoden!

[patito]

I've never played suikoden and don't know much about, and after reading thad's spoiler I don't get what the surprise is supposed to be.

[Niku]

Finally, the boards feel broken in now.

[nosimpleway]

Spoilered for the same reasons we're having this entire discussion.

The hero McDohl is an optional lategame recruit in the sequel. This requires an import of Suikoden 1 game save data into Suikoden 2. When Suikoden 2 came out, that the games were connected at all was a much-ballyhooed, heavily-advertised feature, and it wasn't hard to get a list of everything that data import did, including what's spoilered.

However, the data import is buggy, and will fuck up the hero's name. The name defaults to McDohl, and only capital letters get called in to overwrite the default. So if you name him Tir, his closest-to-canon name, he gets called TcDohl. If you name him TIR, he's TIRohl.

For the sake of anyone who didn't know and might be pleasantly surprised by the event, I mentioned that it was important that the guy's name start with a capital M, but didn't say why. Thad's next post explicitly said that his name should start with M and did say why. Whether this counts as a spoiler and whether anyone should care about spoilers for a game that's nearly 20 years old has spurred exactly what we've all come to expect from our Brontoboards.

[François]

For the record, I know exactly nothing about Suikoden, I read all the spoilered text in this thread, and I'm not feeling the least bit deprived of anything. Honestly if I wanted to be surprised, I'd play the games myself. What is a Let's Play but a long, uninterrupted spoiler, anyway?

[nosimpleway]

Well yeah, eventually.

I mean, by its nature a Let's Play has two audiences. There's the crowd who played the game when it was new, knows the ins and outs, and wants to see something new or unusual done (or just nostalgia hard without the bother of level grinding). There's also the ones who missed the game when it came out, didn't pay attention to any marketing, and the most fundamental spoilers still rob the game of dramatic tension.

I think the first group should be able to discuss the game as they want. While I was LPing Final Fantasy 6, Romosome got mad at people in #finalfight discussing late gameplot points (in as far as FF6 has any lategame plot points). My response was that I wasn't going to wait another 20 years for him to finish the game before talking about my own LP.

But in the interests of the latter group, the guy posting unmarked spoilers in-thread isn't gonna be me. I mean, maybe not everyone remembers that half my current party may be dead by the game's end, or that Kraze is so corrupt he's the only Imperial I can execute without penalty, or that Leknaat is the true series villain pulling strings from behind the scenes, or that someone we've met actually IS a magical super-clone (but it's not Ted), or that at least one of those spoilers is a red herring for people who haven't played the game but read spoilers anyway.

[TedBelmont]

someone we've met actually IS a magical super-clone (but it's not Ted)

:(

[François]

Ha, I understand. On my end I'm more interested in examining plot progression/mechanics (or lack thereof) than I am in experiencing any sort of dramatic tension*, so if I'm spoiled by accident or otherwise it only saves me time later, but yeah I'm probably in the minority here.

*: Unless I'm watching a blind LP of a game I also have not played.

[Brantly B.]

Rollover spoiler tags are so easy and unobtrusive that I don't see the point of complaining about them. On a tangential note, I found out recently that they actually work perfectly on mobile - you tap them and they light up. You can probably pull off the same effect with CSS too but it works so well right now that I'm almost unwilling to mess with it.

[nosimpleway]

Music: Rock Rockland


Where were we? Oh, right. Rockland, the town that isn't paying its taxes. We're here to shake down this guy named Grady until he coughs up some cash.

This Guy: Grady's his name. A real scoundrel!

Child: I'm hungry. Terribly.

Mother: No matter how hard we work, life gets worse and worse. All because of that bum Gre... Oops, that was close. Just forget what I said. Ha ha ha ha...
"Gre"? "Grady" has an A in it. Gremio, what are you hiding!?

Father: They say a new Emperor came to power some years ago, but out here in this country village it makes no difference who's Emperor.

Traveler: You didn't need to carry a weapon last year. But nowadays, it's getting so dangerous around here.

Girl: I saw them, I saw them. It's true. The bandits have returned to Mt. Seifu in the east. That's where they're hiding out.

Boy: Big Brother. Are you an Imperial Army soldier? You're not, are you? I knew it because you didn't hit me.
If you call me onii-san again, I promise I will hit you and probably never stop.

Woman: Who are you? We have no food! THEY take it away as fast as we prepare it!

Man: Could it be that you're the Imperial Army? What's going on in this world? Life used to be so much better. What's the matter with Emperor Barbarosa?

Elderly Diner: Fine scenery and a bit of food make tea taste better. Boorish Imperials make tea taste lousy.
Remember, this is still in the heyday of Nintendo-era censorship, which still showed up on early games not on Nintendo platforms. Most of the time people in this game refer to "tea", they mean "sake".

Possibly Doge: Wow, what a cool outfit. Imperial Guard, right? Wow... wow!
Kanaan: Ha ha ha... that's right.
Possibly Doge: Wow, you're so lucky. Are you so fat because you get to eat well?

Innkeeper: Sorry, we're all out of sake tea.
Kanaan: Then what's all that you've got lined up there?!
Inkeeper: Ha ha, this stuff isn't fit to be served to Imperial bigwigs.


This guy, though. At least, I'm fairly sure it's a guy. Suikosource says it's a little orphan boy, so we'll go with that.


Marco runs a find-the-coin shell game.

Music: Joy Joy Time
This charming banjo-and-mouthharp combo plays for almost every minigame, starting with this one.


Here's the trick, though. He's really bad at it.


Each time you start playing, he follows a set pattern for where the coin ends up. For instance, by betting 1,000 potch bits, he always hides the coin on the right, then the left, then the middle. Exit out, go back in, repeat, rake in the money.

This isn't even gambling, it's highway robbery. Mute and his party walk away barely able to keep their trousers up from all the coin in their pockets.

[nosimpleway]

Doorman: You're not allowed in here. What do you want?
Kanaan: What did you say?! I'm Kanaan, assistant to Imperial Guard Commander Kraze! Tell Grady to get out here!
Doorman: What! Y-yes sir, right away. Please wait a moment.


Doorman: No sir. They say they're the Imperial Guard.
Grady: Whatever they are, I'm busy! Hurry up and... What? Imperial Guard? Did you say Imperial Guard? Why didn't you tell me sooner, you fool!


I can tell you're not important by looking at your lack of a face. No portrait, no fucks to give, sir.

Grady: What brings you to this poor country town? Please come in.


Kanaan: Humph. Looks like you're doing very well here.
Grady: Oh no, not at all, sir.
Kanaan: Forget it. You know why we're here, don't you?
Grady: Indeed, sir. About the taxes, right? We've been troubled about that too. You see, some bandits settled on nearby Mt. Seifu, and have been pillaging the local villages. That's why we've been unable to collect taxes and deliver them to you. But I'm glad there's nothing to be worried about now.
Kanaan: What do you mean by that?
Grady: I speak, of course, of your arrival. The arrival of the courageous National Guard. Getting rid of country bandits should be an easy task for you. You're not afraid of them, I'm sure.
Kanaan: Ho ho! Of course not. Hmmm, bandits, eh? Ummm... well. We should be okay. We'll crush them like flies! Ho ho ho!

Grady might be a greedy, corrupt backwoods hick mayor, but he can play his Imperial superiors like a fiddle. Kanaan, of course, is resistant to any thought of putting his own ass on the line to do his job.

Cleo: That's ridiculous. Our mission is to...
Pahn: Ha ha! I can't wait! I've been waiting for a good fight.
Ted: Me too. Let's teach the bandits a lesson. Right, Mute?


"Guys, we're carrying enough currency to just cover this entire village's tax burden for the year. Probably the decade. We might not want to head into bandit country carrying so much gold, you know?"

"...where the hell did Marco get all this money, anyway?"


What, you didn't think the textbox was actually giving a meaningful choice, did you?

Kanaan: Just shut up and follow me, you cowards. Fine, let's get going. Don't fall back now.
Gremio: I'm glad of your decision, but do you know where Mt. Seifu is?
Kanaan: Sh-shut up. I was just about to ask you.
Grady: Mt. Seifu is east of Rockland.
Kanaan: Fine. Now let's go!


Sure enough, there's Mt. Seifu now.

[nosimpleway]

Music: Distant Mountain


Pahn: And you too.
Kanaan: Here we go! Pahn, you take the lead.
Pahn: Why me?
Kanaan: Just shut up and go. I'm the leader, so I'll go last.
Pahn: Pshaw!
Ted: This is exciting, isn't it, Mute.
Gremio: Ted! Please don't say such things. Young Master, don't put yourself in danger. I Gremio, will be protecting you.
Kanaan: Hey, let's go!


The mountain is just crawling with ants.


This here is what made the first Suikoden games great. A tiny modification to the bog-standard JRPG battle system: people move at the same time to hit different targets. Fights are breezy and fast.


Needless to say, bandits show up in fights once in a while, too.


The rest of the dungeon is vaguely mazelike but not terribly interesting. Rune pieces named after stats don't work like other runes; they're just consumables that make stats go up.

[nosimpleway]

What is that, a woman/insect chimera wearing an antenna tiara? Some sort of... ant royalty?


That's... exactly what she is, as you discover when she attacks. The Queen Ant summons three ant peons every turn, and is crazy stupid strong.


Even mighty Pahn's attacks barely scratch her.


And every turn she sucks the entire party into a hole, where the ground almost literally chews them up and spits them out.


And that's terrible.


Bring out the big guns, Cleo!




The Queen Ant is unfazed and unimpressed.


That's what I'm getting at, yes.

[nosimpleway]

Kanaan: Fools! What are you saying! You must protect me.
Gremio: Young Master, let's run. I'll protect you.
Cleo: I don't know if we can make it.
Kanaan: Do something!
Ted: Mute, everybody, stand back. I have an idea.




Never! Because I've never trusted you with anything.




Ted reveals the rune on his hand, one that looks suspiciously like the symbol from the intro video.








There's a burst of light, a wave of darkness, a terrible noise, and when it's all over... the Queen Ant is simply gone.


Gremio: Ted! How did you do that?
Ted: Sorry, but I can't explain right now. Mute, I'll tell you when we get home. But don't ask now. Anyway, let's get rid of the bandits and go back to Gregminster.


Ominous!

[nosimpleway]

Thunder Rune pieces change the weapon attack to Lightning-elemental and give a small bonus to critical hit chance. They're the rarest rune pieces, since no enemies drop them.


You can tell we're near the end of the dungeon, since there's a Journeyman's Crystal to save the game.




Hey, a portrait! You must be important.

Kanaan: Listen up, you bandits. I, Kanaan, Assistant Commander of the Imperial Guard of the Golden Emperor Barbarosa, have come here to teach you a lesson. Turn yourselves in, you tax thieves.
Varkas: Did you hear that? He says we're the tax thieves. Listen here, you petty clerk. I'm Varkas the Whirlwind Axe. Sydonia, you introduce yourself too.


You both have portraits!

Varkas: Affable fellow. Anyway, that there is Marksman Sydonia. You Imperial tax robbers better get out of here before you get hurt.
Pahn: I'm the renowned Imperial hero...
Cleo: Shut up! Don't you join in their games.
Kanaan: Listen, bandits. If you don't give yourselves up, you'll be sorry.
Varkas: You wanna fight? Fellas, go get 'em!


Kanaan practically teleports from the front of the party to the back.

Kanaan: W-what are you doing? Hurry up and fight! Fight!


So we do.

[nosimpleway]

I can't not read this guy in a Beavis from Beavis and Butt-head voice.


Anyway, we have to fight the two named bandits.


Varkas is pretty standard jump-in-and-hit animation. Sydonia actually teleports over to his target. It's a special skill he has, rather than being based on runic magic.


Overall, it doesn't save his hide, or Varkas's.


Gremio: Phew! Are you all right, Young Master?
Kanaan: Heh heh heh. That's what you get for defying me.
Cleo: You didn't do a thing.
Varkas: Damn. How can I be defeated by Imperial dogs.
Kanaan: Capture the bandits. OK, our work is done! Let's get the hell out of here!


So fast, you don't even have to do the dungeon in reverse. You're just suddenly at the mountain base.

[nosimpleway]

Doorman: What, you captured them? I'll get Master Grady right away. Please wait a moment.


Grady: You didn't waste any time capturing the tax thieves.
Varkas: What do you mean, tax thieves? You're the tax thief!
Grady: We'll place them in this dungeon here.


Well, maybe they weren't important after all.


Kanaan: What?
Grady: Please take this. A small gift from the villagers.
Kanaan: Well, thank you very much.








Kanaan: I want to report my success to Commander Kraze right away.

[nosimpleway]

Kanaan: You can all go home and rest. I'm such a nice guy.
Pahn: Yeah, so nice it makes me cry. He's planning to take all the credit for himself.
Cleo: Let it go, Pahn. It wasn't such a big accomplishment anyway. I'm exhausted. I want to go home and rest.
Gremio: Young Master, we've been away from home for a long time. I'll fix something special to eat.
Ted: Great. Gremio, your cooking's terrific.
Kanaan: Ted, you come with me.
Ted: What's this about?
Kanaan: Oh, nothing much. It'll be over soon. Come along now.
Ted: OK then. Mute, go on home. I'll see you later. Besides, I have something to tell you.
Kanaan: Let's go, Ted.


Huh.


Gremio: Young Master, I'll prepare some food right away.


Pahn: Sure beats the dried meat we've been eating. Finally some food fit for humans.
Cleo: What are you talking about? You'd eat anything to fill your stomach.
Pahn: You've got a point there. Ha, ha, ha, ha!


As an after-dinner digestif, it's again likely booze of some sort.




Cleo: Young Master, where did you learn such language? Pahn! Was it you?

heh heh


Pahn: ...Army.
Cleo: You're right. Compared to the days when we won the War of Succession, the Army's reputation has gone down the drain.
Gremio: That's because of shady characters like Kraze and Kanaan doing whatever they like.


Gremio: The stew's getting cold.


Whoa! Ted was passed out in the foyer this whole time!

[Thad]

But in the interests of the latter group, the guy posting unmarked spoilers in-thread isn't gonna be me.

But will you, say, still unequip characters who are about to leave the party?

At any rate, I can tag spoilers. Feels a little odd to do for a game from the Clinton Administration, but I can do it.

The problem would seem to be that I am not able to accurately predict what some people will consider a spoiler. When I think "spoiler", I'm thinking character deaths, shifting allegiances, big stuff. It did not occur to me that mundane details of the sequel's import system would be considered spoilers, especially since they weren't considered such when the game was brand new. I'm plenty sensitive about spoilers (I'm still kinda irritated that nobody spoilertagged the Doctor Who thing from that web video right before the anniversary); I just don't think this was one.

So it seems my choices are not to say anything at all, to spoilertag absolutely everything I say in the thread, or to continue using my best judgement and risk that something that's a mundane detail to me may upset somebody flying blind.

I'm going to go with the latter. I'm really not out to ruin anybody's enjoyment, but I guess that's a risk.

To put things honestly and without snark: Lyrai, I'm sorry I posted something that diminishes your enjoyment of the game; it was not my intention. I AM pretty irritated that your response was, apparently, to go straight to the mods to complain about it, and then complain some more in #finalfight, before you ever said word one about it to me. This is a conversation we could have had as mature adults and as friends, and I really wish that was your first instinct when someone posts something that annoys you instead of going straight for the Report Post button.

Last I'll say on the subject in the thread; would be happy to take it to PM's or some new thread if anyone wants to keep talking about it.

Back to the task at hand:

Leknaat is the true series villain pulling strings from behind the scenes

I assume that's the one you meant was a red herring, but I think it's a perfectly valid perspective. Whether or not she's one of the "good guys", she IS manipulating events throughout the series, and there's no getting around the fact that she's personally, if indirectly, responsible for the events that happen in 3.

NEW REPLIES HAS BEEN POSTEDED

Aw snap, shit just got real. Well, unfortunate timing, but I spent this long writing this thing, so I'll put it here for everyone to skip over and move along to WHAT'S HAPPENED TO TED.

[nosimpleway]

But will you, say, still unequip characters who are about to leave the party?

Yes. Ted handed over all the stuff he was carrying before I got back to Gregminster, but that's the sort of thing I can gloss over without making a big deal of in the LP.

[Thad]

Major Suikoden 2 spoilers:

I remember the first time I tried to get the Good Ending I kept unequipping Nanami right before her death, because the walkthrough I was reading just mentioned shouting "Nanami!", not that her defense score played a role. Must have done the sequence three times before I decided to try leaving her armor on and see what happened. At least the walkthrough mentioned that if you did it right the doc would ask to speak to Shu; otherwise I'd have gotten to the endgame without knowing.

Hell, maybe I DID get to the endgame without knowing, and wound up having to restore from an earlier save or do a full replay at a later date. I know there was at least one time I got to the last fight with Jowy and never got the option to refuse to fight him. It all kinda runs together...