Hottest PS2 Game (Round of 46)

[Friday]

1. God Hand
2. Killer 7
3. Kingdom Hearts
4. Kingdom Hearts 2
5. Viewtiful Joe
6. FF12
7. FFX
8. Pyschonauts
9. Silent Hill 2
10. Silent Hill 3
11. Silent Hill 4
12. Gitaroo Man
13. Disgaea
14. Devil May Cry 3
15. Dragon Quest VIII
16. Beyond Good and Evil
17. Okami
18. Soul Calibur 2
19. Persona 3 FES
20. Katamari Damacy
21. Resident Evil 4
22. Rez
23. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time
24. GTA San Andreas
25. GTA Vice City
26. Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance
27. Metal Gear Solid 3: Subsistence
28. Ico
29. Shadow of the Colossus
30. God of War 2
31. Persona 4 (Poll closed, let's get drunk)
32. Odin Sphere
33. Armored Core 2
34. Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (hey Paco)
35. Castlevania: Curse of Darkness
36. Drakengard
37. Nano Breaker (hey fbm)
38. Space Channel 5 Special Edition (1+2)
39. Shinobi
40. Klonoa 2: Lunatea's Veil
41. Suikoden V
42. DDRMAX
43. Graffiti Kingdom
44. SMT: Nocturne
45. Taiko: Drum Master
46. Chulip

Due to ties being advanced, we're slightly above the normal half (42) remaining.

I'll run groups of 6, vote/advance 3 in this round.

First up:

43. Graffiti Kingdom
41. Suikoden V
45. Taiko: Drum Master
4. Kingdom Hearts 2
25. GTA Vice City
9. Silent Hill 2

[Friday]

Unlike the SNES poll which was dominated by JRPGs, the PS2 poll has some real variety of genre. Let's see...

3D Brawlers, Horror, JPRG, Music/Rhythm games, GTA, whatever the hell Pyschonauts is, whatever the hell Killer7 is, a 2D Brawler, Puzzle/Action games, TRPG, a game where you roll a giant ball around collecting more stuff for your ball, you get the idea.

PS2 really seems like it was a platform where a lot of people really experimented with new kinds of shit. Kinda weird that its library has a quasi-negative rep nowadays. There's plenty of interesting and plenty of solid games. Even quite a few classics.

I guess it was just also flooded with shitty FPS games. Which we have none of, unless you count RE4 or Killer7.

[MarsDragon]

The PS2 was the highest-selling console ever and it hit when game development was still relatively cheap and 3d was pretty experimental. A lot of the really rough edges got smoothed out in the PSX/N64 eras, but there was still new ground to be broken when the PS2 hit the scene. In a lot of ways it was the true beginning of the console 3d era, picking up steam right when the Dreamcast, the last gasp of the arcade, died. (the arcade at that point having the last hold out of 2d gaming, fighting games)

You can criticize the PS2's library for a lot of reasons, but it has incredible breadth. With that comes shovelware and other crap, but there's always diamonds in the rough. The Dreamcast had a narrowly focused band of (mostly) arcade hits, the PS2 had, well....literally everything else.

[Brantly B.]

This is the first time I've heard anyone say the PS2's library has a negative rep. Even if you're just focusing on the shovelware, it's nothing compared to the Wii/handhelds. And on the flipside, if you're only focusing on AAA, the GTA series started (for all serious intents and purposes) on the PS2, so... eat a dick.

[beatbandito]

This is the first time I've heard anyone say the PS2's library has a negative rep.

The ps2 is the console equivalent of The Beatles at this point. It's nearly impossible to neither not have some stuff you like and some you don't once that much material is covered.

But that said it's the best console objectively and not just because everyone's favorite console was the one they had when they were 8-12.

[Friday]

43. Graffiti Kingdom 4
41. Suikoden V 3
45. Taiko: Drum Master 4
4. Kingdom Hearts 2 2
25. GTA Vice City 3
9. Silent Hill 2 3

Next up:

17. Okami
34. Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (hey Paco)
32. Odin Sphere
36. Drakengard
19. Persona 3 FES
23. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time

[Friday]

17. Okami 5
34. Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter (hey Paco) 5
32. Odin Sphere 7
36. Drakengard 1
19. Persona 3 FES 6
23. Prince of Persia: Sands of Time 4

In order to avoid Paco's "I'm disappointed in you, daughter" when he inevitably comes back to the boards and looks at this thread, I'll be advancing BoFV over Okami.

Next up:

38. Space Channel 5 Special Edition (1+2)
14. Devil May Cry 3
28. Ico
29. Shadow of the Colossus
15. Dragon Quest VIII
6. FF12

[Friday]

Ico is a better game than SotC, discuss

[beatbandito]

Ico didn't have a story until SotC

[Niku]

ff12 is the best 3d final fantasy game discuss

[Friday]

No I want to talk about DMC3 sick combos with nunchucks made of ice

[Friday]

and then I do a double jump off a summoned demon skull and shoot them 20 times in midair with dual pistols and then I do a sword uppercut and then I fire a rocket point blank into their face

note that none of that is actually a joke

[Niku]

counterpoint the only good dmc game is DmC

[Friday]

38. Space Channel 5 Special Edition (1+2) 4
14. Devil May Cry 3 3
28. Ico 5
29. Shadow of the Colossus 6
15. Dragon Quest VIII 3
6. FF12 3

Welp, there goes my favorite RPG.

Next up:

3. Kingdom Hearts
16. Beyond Good and Evil
31. Persona 4 (Poll closed, let's get drunk)
11. Silent Hill 4
2. Killer 7
46. Chulip

[beatbandito]

I'mma be mad if Beyond Good & Evil ends up not having needed my help, but Silent Hill 4 does.

[pacobird]

Is this where I can make my case for Dragon Quarter?

[pacobird]

I.

Okay. So, before we start, I have to talk about Art and What It Is for a bit, because I am definitely about to make a play to convince you that Dragon Quarter is not just art, but an absolute watershed moment in video games as an artistic medium, and before I get into it we're going to have to establish some context. Trying to define art gets a bad rap (see: Arthur Danto saying the only qualification for art is someone saying it is and getting others to believe him), but I think the issue is that art can't be defined objectively: you can still come up with your own standard for art and I think identifying and articulating that standard becomes pretty important as you move further up Maslow's Pyramid.

So here's my standard for art: theme. More specifically, how the features of the chosen medium are used to communicate theme. Establishing a theme is a good start, and the artist can have a lot to say about it, but I'd still judge it poorly as art if the artist didn't use the medium very well. Politically fraught as this is, I think Depression Quest is a good example of a game teeing up to be art and failing in this way. Quinn has a lot to say about depression, but doesn't really use the medium of games to add any dimension that wouldn't be present in a simple short story about a day in this person's life. In fact, it's just the opposite: Quinn tries to show the paralysis of depression by giving us choices that are clearly the correct way to handle a situation and then simply denying us agency, which might simulate the experience but doesn't tell us anything about what it's like to live like that that we couldn't get from an essay.

So how does Dragon Quarter do this better? By focusing on the one thing games do well: offering agency. Depression Quest falls apart not because the choices are meaningless, but because it presents choices that would be meaningful but denies the player the agency to pursue them. It does not use the medium. It is, again, an essay that says, "I know what I have to do, but cannot do it." Dragon Quarter allows you to make those choices, but silently imposes consequences that assert themselves in frustrating ways and might seem totally unconnected if you aren't recognizing the theme the game is trying to explore. And that theme is pretty simple: being poor is awful.

[pacobird]

II.

If you weren't paying attention to how insanely dark the Breath of Fire series was getting in later installments, Dragon Quarter would seem like a huge departure and a bit of a fuck you to everybody who hung on for generic hang-out adventures with all your anime furry friends. It should be obvious from that sentence but I see it as a continuation: 3 predicts widespread ecological disaster with Tyr's death, and the world of Dragon Quarter is its logical conclusion. People moved underground because the world was ruined, and now they can't leave. Life sucks now. Raise the curtain.

The first character you meet is Bosch. Bosch is a pretty bog-standard Asshole Nobleman, but the game is very careful to contextualize this with the D Ratio concept. Whether or not you the player choose to believe it, the characters of this world believe fiercely in a Natural Aristocracy: Bosch may be considered better than you because of an inherited status, but he has a 1/64 Ratio to back it up. The world of Dragon Quarter must desperately believe it is a meritocracy even though both figurative and literal mobility are impossible. A lesser game would come out and say it.

Never mind that he never actually demonstrates his superiority; the world invests status in him because of potential, and not showing ability in the short term won't stop him from failing upwards. He even says as much. The irritation you feel when he does less (or worse, only slightly more) damage than Ryu and lords it over him constantly? That's what it's like to be around privilege.

Once you're rid of that toad, the actual game begins. Those claustrophobic early hours immediately get worse. Bosch was awful but at least he was someone to talk to. Now you're on your own, and you're on the run. This always struck me as a darkly funny twist on the aimlessness of the series' previous adventures, since now, like then, you aren't intentionally doing anything other than just trying to survive and push your way up through a metaphor to get free.

But in order to do that, you have to wrestle with the game's mechanics. This, I think, is where the theme really shines through. It'd be fine just to make the player cash and XP poor (indeed, most JRPGs could benefit from money being more meaningful), but Dragon Quarter goes the extra mile by taunting you with a ferociously difficult game that would just be so easy if you had more. There's no healing magic (I'm sure a libertarian would tell you to just cast Cure using only your bootstraps for MP) but healing items can be used without sacrificing a turn, meaning if you had infinite money you could just spam medkits with no in-combat consequence and bore everything to death.

The Dragon Counter is the ultimate expression of this sensibility, and the degree to which everyone fucking hates it is all the evidence you need of this game's brilliance. See, the Counter is a resource, and like any resource it only means anything if you actively use it. People hated this counter because it just keeps ticking, just sitting there like a Sword of Damocles over their fun (now you know what it's like to have $250 in your checking account, buddy), but the brilliant thing is that it should only bother you if you value keeping the counter low over beating the game.

Read that again. It's crucial. The Dragon Counter should only bother you if you value keeping it low over beating the game.

Does that describe you? You're probably from a middle class background, then. A poor person, looking at that counter, would understand that this is a thing to be budgeted, not saved. The middle class and higher reflexively saves it because we're taught to value hoarding wealth over our own well-being, and to shame those who don't.

[pacobird]

FUCK I WAS TOO LATE

YOU GUYS DONT DESERVE PART 3

[Niku]

no no keep going you'll need this for the next round it shows up in