Lord of the Wrongs

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21356
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Mongrel » Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:02 pm

The way child is used in that sentence isn't necessarily the literal version we know, as the the term can encompass descendents when used poetically, rather like "scion" (though this is less common now). So I think it's possible that Shelob is like, an inbred granddaughter or even great-granddaughter, but as Tolkien mentions (IIRC) that she's older than Mordor, going so far as to explicitly state she fled Beleriand at the end of the First Age, I would agree she's not very far removed, if at all.
It is implied that Shelob may have fled from Ered Gorgoroth as Tolkien states, "There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come."

(Gorgoroth was Ungoliant's temporary home in Beleriand)

Most online Tolkien references take "child" literally as well, listing Shelob as Ungoliant's daughter, so it's a pretty common perception in any case.

The only reason I think there might be any generations in between at all is that Shelob is clearly greatly diminished from Ungoliant. Going from "can eat the light of the trees and give no fucks." to being horribly burned by a thrice-removed version of that same light in one generation is quite the power level drop off, and is sort of out of line with the way Tolkien treated that sort of thing. Unless maybe Shelob was the "runt of the litter" or something.

I think part of what leaves room for ambiguity is the fact that Tolkien variously decided at different times that Ungoliant was a maiar who was originally a servant of Melkor, some spirit of the outer dark beholden to no deity of creation, or something vaguely roughly in between those two power levels (which is roughly what was published). It's clear she's not more powerful than Melkor until she consumes the light from the trees, but powerful enough for Melkor to pretend to treat with her on equal terms before that.

Incidentally, I tripped over a fun fact while double-checking stuff:
The name Shelob is derived from "lob", an archaic English word for spider. A variation, "cob", is the derivation of the word "cobweb". The first element, "she", simply mentions the spider's gender.
Image

User avatar
Friday
Posts: 6337
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:40 pm
Location: Karma: -65373

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Friday » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:23 pm

Brentai wrote:We're talking about Young Satan and an eldritch spider goddess who eats her mates, and your logic is that they're less likely to have fucked because they hated each other.

I can't even make a dumb joke about spider sex here without somebody fighting me. Fuck. This.


Whoa, I wasn't fighting you. Sorry if it came off that way, I was just being a hyper-nerd* because I am a hyper-nerd and got excited to blather on about Tolkien.

*a hyper-nerd is B tier on the Tier system of being a nerd about Tolkien, as illustrated below:

S Tier - Stephen Colbert

A Tier - Super-Hyper Nerd (All of below and also has all family trees and all names and all dates memorized)

B Tier - Hyper Nerd (Has read The Silmarillion multiple times and liked it, enjoys the appendixes, theorycrafts and headcanons liberally)

C Tier - Nerd (Loves the Books and has tried to read The Silmarillion but can't get through it)

D Tier - Movie Lover (Loves the Movies and has tried to read The Books but quits at the Council of Elrond)

F Tier - Why didn't they just ride the Eagles to Mordor
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21356
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Mongrel » Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:37 pm

I will never get tired of this.

Image

User avatar
Caithness
Posts: 945
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:45 pm
Location: Mint is a vegetable, right?

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Caithness » Thu Sep 08, 2022 10:22 pm

I read the Silmarillion once and loved it, but my second read-through of the main trilogy stalled in Return of the King. It's just so dry compared to the Hobbit. What tier does that make me

User avatar
Sharkey
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:11 pm
Location: Send Lawyers, Guns and Money
Contact:

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Sharkey » Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:46 am

But seriously who wouldn't have hatefucked the spider. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Image

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21356
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Mongrel » Fri Sep 09, 2022 3:24 pm

Well, the staff of Monolith Games is certainly on board with the spider-lady fucking.
Image

User avatar
Mazian
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:47 pm
Location: Lullaby Supermarket

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Mazian » Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:21 pm

Image

Conclusion: Rachnera is a descendant of Ungoliant

User avatar
Friday
Posts: 6337
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:40 pm
Location: Karma: -65373

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Friday » Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:37 am

Conclusion: Rachnera is a descendant of Ungoliant


thanks, I haven't laughed this hard in a while

"last child of Ungoliant to sex up this horny world"
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Büge
Posts: 5484
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:56 pm

Re: Lord of the Wrongs

Postby Büge » Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:37 pm

Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests