Let's all go to the movies~

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Thad
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Thad » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:39 am

True, but after BvS underperformed it sure seems like there's been some panic and some correction in the opposite direction. The last-minute changes to Suicide Squad weren't enough to save it, but WW didn't even get a director until after BvS's release.

"It's not like BvS, we swear!" has been a pretty strong subtext to WW all along, and they're swearing Aquaman is going to be fun. Flash hasn't been able to keep a director, but they started with Lord and Miller, which has certain implications regarding the tone they're going for. And Whedon's doing Batgirl.

Snyder directed JL, and it's mostly done; Whedon's finishing it up. As for what kind of role Snyder has going forward, if any, I think it'd be pretty crass to speculate under the circumstances. I wish him and his family the best.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Brentai » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:15 am

4 out of 5. A fun romp, even though the rough edges are still sticking out a little. It's not Batman Vs. Superman, which means a lot.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Mongrel » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:08 pm

Enjoyed it a lot. Very well done both in the large flourishes and small details. It might sound like a really canned and trite line, but I think they finally figured out how to present Wonder Woman as a compelling character to a wide audience, and with her own distinct identity and not just "the female superman".

Only two quibbles were very minor, the first mostly spurious due to the historian in me and the second I feel is more justified:

1) While making Ludendorff into a cartoon villain is fine (if anything, cartoon villainy falls far short of his real-life perfidy), killing both Hindenburg and Ludendorff does present a bit of a, uh, historical problem.

2) David Thewlis makes for a great Ares in the spooky tower scene, but once he UNLEASHES HIS FULL POWAHHHH, a slender, hyper-British man really does not sell himself well as the God of War. That he had the same face - moustache and all! - in the flashback was even goofier.
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Thad
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Thad » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:48 pm

I really liked everything except the last act.

It does have the Snyder desaturated palette thing going on, but I actually kinda liked how they did a reverse-Wizard of Oz with it, and had Themyscira as a brightly-colored fantasyland and the real world as drab and gray.

And the last act...well, basically everything from where Ares actually shows up just feels like "Oh yeah, this is supposed to be a superhero movie; better throw out a bunch of superhero movie cliches." (Quick, name the best superhero adaptations of the past year and a half. If you said Deadpool, Logan, and Legion, we are on the same page, and oh look, they're the ones that avoided superhero cliches. Or intentionally subverted them.)

It would have been a lot better if Ludendorff actually had turned out to be Ares, his death had been a total anticlimax that didn't change anything, and WW would have just had to deal with the moral ramifications of that. Instead, we get big spiky villain shouting "We're not so different, you and I!" and hero punching him. Because we've gotta fill up our Bingo card, right?

Also, it's quite clear that they went with WWI over WWII specifically to avoid comparisons to Captain America (and okay also because it'd be a lot tougher to sell an audience on "the bad guy was with the Allies all along!" in a WWII movie). So, uh, if your goal is to avoid comparisons to Captain America, maybe don't crib the entire climax of your film from it? Just a thought.

And I hate the fucking "daughter of Zeus" origin retcon so much. Way to take the most overtly feminist superheroine and establish that she is special because of who her father is. Great job, Azz; good hustle out there.

And the "Whenever Batman's not onscreen, all the other characters should be asking, 'Where's Batman?'" framing device was bullshit too. (I guess the camera survived the bombing, and someone found it and developed the film?) DC, you have the world's second-greatest superhero stable; maybe start letting them stand on their own instead of constantly reminding people that they know Batman, or changing them to be more like Batman. (Hey everybody, did you know Barry Allen has a motivating tragedy involving the murder of a parent? If you forgot about that, don't worry, someone will be sure to remind you in the last act of the episode while sad piano music plays.)

They've also cribbed from Marvel in making a movie with a completely forgettable soundtrack. "Let's see...she's a naive but deeply moral Amazon fighting in World War I. Is generic electric guitar good for everybody?"

That focuses quite a lot on the negative, though, and I really did like most of the movie. Gadot is perfectly cast, and Pine turns out to have some real comic chops. Wish there'd been more of Etta, and I don't expect we'll be seeing her in any sequels seeing as she'd be 120 years old or whatever by now. (Maybe she can turn out to be a robot, like Dum-Dum Dugan.) It's, like, 75% of a great Wonder Woman movie, and 25% of a just-okay one.

And, as Brent notes, this franchise really needed a win, and it's finally got one. DC/Warner has proven it's salvageable, and that counts for a lot. I'm still nervous about Justice League and Flash (while somewhat more optimistic about Batgirl, and not sure what to think about Aquaman yet), but this was a big step in the right direction.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Mongrel » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:00 pm

Yeah, I liked the way they almost lampooned DC's grimdark greyscale colour scheme.

I think we did get a halfassed version of what you wanted in that Ares makes it clear and explicit that he doesn't forcibly compel anyone.

I was sort of hoping Ares wouldn't show up at all, but that probably would have been a yard too far for a superhero movie.
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Thad » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:50 am

Mongrel wrote:I think we did get a halfassed version of what you wanted in that Ares makes it clear and explicit that he doesn't forcibly compel anyone.


I don't think that really even needs a spoiler tag; Diana's continued insistence that people are only fighting because of Ares' influence and everything will be okay once he's defeated is clearly and repeatedly signposted as her naivete talking. Everybody else straight-up tugs their collar every time she says it.

That reckoning, the realization that no, people can be pretty terrible all by themselves, is a key moment of realization, and the movie handles it really well for a minute, and then moves on to Last Boss Fight, because who needs complex ruminations on the complexity of human beings and the loss of innocence when you can have spiky guys shouting things?

The part where she decides she's going to help people anyway, despite their faults, is good, but somewhat weakened by all the Power of Love stuff, which honestly feels perfunctory and unearned. I mean, Steve Trevor's kind of always carried the baggage of a story where the leading lady literally falls in love with the first man she ever sees, but that's compounded here because, as usual, a superhero movie has the problem of compressing a long-running serial narrative into a couple of hours. The movie takes place over, what, a couple of weeks? Steve seems like a good guy, but true love? Nah, not feeling it.

Also, this is getting to be a bit broken-record, but it is pretty fucking disappointing that it's 2017 and we're still treating Wonder Woman's bisexuality as subtextual. I mean, at least the subtext is there, but I wish Warner had the guts to just come out and, well, come out instead of worrying about Chinese box office or whatever.

Ryan Reynolds has remarked that he'd really like for Deadpool to have a boyfriend in the next movie. If that happens, it'll be one more thing Fox is doing right while the other studios are spinning their wheels (Marvel) or...finally achieving a level of basic competence (Warner). Really, just a few short years ago who would have figured Fox would be the studio that was telling the best, most creative, most diverse* superhero stories? (I mean, I guess they have been doing it longer than Marvel. Then again, they haven't been doing it as long as Warner.)

* Here I'm referring to diversity in structure and tone, not cast, which yeah is still overwhelmingly white and male-led. Warner just put out a movie with an Israeli female lead, and Marvel's got one coming up with an African-American male lead, so both are ahead of Fox in terms of more diverse casts. (Though still mostly white and male-led.) If Fox does make the first superhero movie from a major studio to feature a main character in a same-sex relationship, though, that'd be a pretty big deal too.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:55 am

I think that if I'm feeling charitable, it's Steve that falls for Diana, and while there's some reciprocation she's not as head-over-heels. In that case, she's upset for multiple reasons. Not simply because she's starting to get to like Steve in a romantic sense, but also because she's lost the first man she met - her reason for leaving, and the first really selfless person she's met, realizing the cost of that. Like, it's a "it can be multiple things" situation.

But the movie doesn't make that explicit, so criticizing on the grounds you have is fair.
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Thad » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:23 am



Oh shit, did I see the Midnight Angels in there?

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Rico » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:45 am

Re WW Final Boss Fight: So... I know bookends are a thing and all, but fuck, ARES IS NOT THE GOD WHO SHOOTS LIGHTNING AT PEOPLE. For a second I thought we might actually get an interesting reveal about how Zeus and Ares were working together after all these years or something but before the movie could even crush my hopes itself my brain's knowledge of summer comicbook blockbusters shut it down for me.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby zaratustra » Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:09 am

Rico wrote:Re WW Final Boss Fight: So... I know bookends are a thing and all, but fuck, ARES IS NOT THE GOD WHO SHOOTS LIGHTNING AT PEOPLE. For a second I thought we might actually get an interesting reveal about how Zeus and Ares were working together after all these years or something but before the movie could even crush my hopes itself my brain's knowledge of summer comicbook blockbusters shut it down for me.


He was just trying to match WW in quantity of powers pulled out of one's ass at the last moment.

The whole final battle felt like Zack Snyder stuffed Patty Jenkins in a locker then set on to "fix" the last two hours of movie HIS WAY.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Niku » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:47 am

The editing of the action and sound effects to the music in Baby Driver prompted me to mutter about how Edgar Wright was just being a showboating asshole more than once. Highly fucking recommended. The plot and characterization is utterly paper thin on all counts but the fact that the entire thing feels like someone let OK Go direct an action/chase movie completely makes up for that. Except they probably would have insisted on doing the whole movie in one take.
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby beatbandito » Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:25 am

Just having heard of that movie now, I am instantly disappointed it appears to be what Driver advertised itself to be and not "Boss Baby, but fuck it, he's a getaway driver" which doesn't sound as terrible when I thought Edgar Wright was still directing it for some reason.
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Mothra » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:26 pm

I am absolutely dying to see this thing.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Spooky Skeleton » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:33 am

beatbandito wrote:Just having heard of that movie now, I am instantly disappointed it appears to be what Driver advertised itself to be and not "Boss Baby, but fuck it, he's a getaway driver" which doesn't sound as terrible when I thought Edgar Wright was still directing it for some reason.


I'm gonna assume you mean Drive. I was going to say that Driver was that Stallone F-1 racing movie flop, but that was actually called Driven. It just goes to show you that no one - not even Stallone - would ever call a movie Driver.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Joxam » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:41 pm

Driver is an insanely well known video game franchise, geo.
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby beatbandito » Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:08 pm

This is all true!

But I did say Driver when I meant Drive because I just typed Driver and the movie made little enough impact to not notice or care about the R. We're all winners!
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby malikial » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:02 pm

Rico wrote:Re WW Final Boss Fight: So... I know bookends are a thing and all, but fuck, ARES IS NOT THE GOD WHO SHOOTS LIGHTNING AT PEOPLE. For a second I thought we might actually get an interesting reveal about how Zeus and Ares were working together after all these years or something but before the movie could even crush my hopes itself my brain's knowledge of summer comicbook blockbusters shut it down for me.

I know it's probably because I watched it more than once due to free movies but the entire point of the exposition at the start of the movie is pointing out that Ares destroyed all the Olympians to steal their powers ending with him stealing Zues' lightning and that causing Zues, who was mortally wounded, to have to create The Godkiller(Diana) with the last of his power.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Spooky Skeleton » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:03 am

Joxam wrote:Driver is an insanely well known video game franchise, geo.


Oh, I thought we were talking about movies in the movie thread.

Oh, we were.

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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Joxam » Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:12 pm

Oh I forgot, video game nerds have never compaired movies to videogames ever... fuck off with that shit.
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Re: Let's all go to the movies~

Postby Spooky Skeleton » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:02 am

Joxam, you snidely corrected me after I politely corrected Beat Bandit (just so I could make fun of bad Stallone movie no less) and you were wrong and so I rightly ribbed you back.

You can't come over the top again and with profanity no less.

Quit being an asshole.

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