Kill la Kill: nani sore

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Classic
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Classic » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:42 pm

From the opinions I've read, Kill la Kill has a few scenes where Ryuuko is put in rape-y situations. Ep1: waking up "naked" and pinned under the doctor, who's breathing heavily; Waking up in the sympathetic teacher's office, also "naked", which happens repeatedly; Episode 5? 6?: trapped in the bathroom with captain sewing needle-uzi mega-burly commanding her to remove Senketsu.

And the idea that sex appeal is empowering (is something that's been (being?) debated amongst more scholarly (and female) feminists?) rubs some of the people holding those opinions the wrong way. As well as some people reading EP 3: Ryuuko basically being pressured or forced into accepting Senketsu's final form as being also kind of violation-y. Satsuki is willing to sacrifice anything for her goals and use whatever she has available to become stronger, but Ryuuko is essentially coerced into accepting this as a cost of power (which, see previous parenthetical, has different reads depending on what feminist theory you ascribe to) and berated as foolish for not accepting that power? Which one commenter suggested read as blame-the-victim-style reasoning?.


These concerns haven't kept me from watching the show (ep.19). But I am waiting for the scene or moment that actually makes me throw my hands into the air in frustration and resolve to quit if the show doesn't subvert the decision by the end of the episode.


Incidentally: Gurren Lagann had one right at the end where Simon gives the core drill to Gimmy instead of Darry, even though Darry is basically shown to be more competent and powerful in basically every respect. And GImmy is also, you know, the one who recklessly says that Simon should re-write reality to bring back dead people he cares about. So... I dunno why you'd give THAT GUY something that has even a tiny chance of amplifying his powers to that level. And now I'm pissed again.

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:12 pm

Episode 5: The Biology club costuming is based on those split-in-half anatomical models? As good a time as any to mention I really fucking like the character and costume design in this, wedgiegelions aside. Senketsu's giant baleful glare + eyepatch is pretty aces. Sewing machine gun? Fuck yeah. In case episode three didn't make it clear, we are going way off the deep end with regards to the importance of magical clothing in this series, with the group working against Honnouji and Satsuki actually called Nudist Beach and the Casey Jones character making his debut here using sewing needles to counteract the powers of the uniforms. The two pieces of information gimmick is pretty obnoxious. Jakuzure is pretty high tier Waifu material, but I'm a sucker for music playing over silent scenes of carnage.

Episode 6: Exhibishonen Teacher is a pretty one-note gag, but given he's up against perverted brother and dad, he manages to stay above the bottom of the barrel so far. If it's a joke that's funny once driven so far into the ground afterward that it eventually becomes funny again, maybe he'll get a pass. I like the show's choice to 4:3 flashback sequences. The one in this episode reminded me of one of my favorite stylish flourishes in the third episode, because I also kinda love it when people's willpower/ki/presence/whatever is so strong it throws shit around by itself. Eventually all anime fights are two people staring one another down while the world is burned to cinders in the resultant spark between them. In general, this show uses anime tropes and shorthands really well to get across its point -- I'm not sure how it would play as someone's first anime series, really. A problem that comes once most of the works in a medium are being made by the fans of that medium, but it works in the show's favor here. Is this the kind of show that's going to subvert expectations by letting Ryuko deal with one of the four mid-bosses like a chump halfway through an episode a fourth of the way into the series? It really could have gone either way. I'm actually not sure which staff is shared between Gurren Lagann's Gainax team and Trigger, but otaku making things for otaku has kind of been Gainax's thing from day one, and when they run all the way with letting you know that they know what you know, they can follow the script while still making you wonder how much they're going to follow it.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Friday » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:37 pm

The seeming consensus on "is sex female empowerment?" is that it only is if it fits their character. i.e. White Queen dressing like a slut is fine because that's her character, but all the other X-Men girls need to be in jeans and a T-shirt at all times. Satsuki can show as much skin as she pleases because SHE HAS TO WIN NO MATTER THE COST but Ryuuuuuko can't because she is a more normal person? k w/e

Kill la Kill is filled to the brim with male gaze and fanservice. Their transformation sequences highlight the tits and ass bouncing, the camera is often positioned under Ryu - indeterminate amount of u - ko's ass, the peeping tom shit the brother and dad do is shrugged off as comedy boys will be boys.

There is no question that the show is catering to the male need to sexualize, objectify, and break his dick off in everything female at all times. I would also argue that the show DOES do some serious female empowerment stuff.

Shrug. Like most shows, it's a mixed bag. It works to empower while at the same time providing plenty of ass and titties and low camera angles. The fact that "showing skin is a plot point" doesn't fucking matter, at all. It's like saying that female ninjas have to wear that ridiculous getup so they can be flexible.

A lot of what constitutes female empowerment is up for debate because we, as a society, both male and female, still cannot get over the virgin/whore divide. A girl cannot fuck/be sexual without it marking her negatively in the minds of others. Period. Until that changes, and people accept that a girl having 20 different sexual partners by the age of 25 DOES NOT MAKE HER A SLUT, nobody will agree on what an empowered female looks like.

You want my opinion? An empowered female is someone who does not give a fuck what society thinks of her choices. Hell, that's true for males as well.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:11 pm

Friday wrote:Kill la Kill is filled to the brim with male gaze and fanservice. Their transformation sequences highlight the tits and ass bouncing, the camera is often positioned under Ryu - indeterminate amount of u - ko's ass, the peeping tom shit the brother and dad do is shrugged off as comedy boys will be boys.


Yeah, if people are actually trying to defend any of this as SHIT THAT IS IMPORTANT TO THE NARRATIVE or somehow actually feminist they're going to need a pretty strong light as they go spelunking in Up Their Own Ass Mountain. Protip for male empowerment: sometimes it is also okay to admit some shit is just there to show some titties and some shit is also sometimes 99% of shit that is made. As a 22 to 34 year old white male, I
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Classic » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:27 am

Friday wrote:The seeming consensus on "is sex female empowerment?" is that it only is if it fits their character. i.e. White Queen dressing like a slut is fine because that's her character, but all the other X-Men girls need to be in jeans and a T-shirt at all times. Satsuki can show as much skin as she pleases because SHE HAS TO WIN NO MATTER THE COST but Ryuuuuuko can't because she is a more normal person? k w/e

I've always read it not quite as "does it fit their character?" so much as "is it a reflection of that character's agency?"
Obvious SNAFUs involving how very many female characters are still written by men, ostensibly for men. How very many writers (subconsciously?) employ a vigrin/slut dichotomy, even if it's as simple as making the characters who aren't in "normative" roles the "villains". etc. etc.

I don't think anyone here wants to discuss the scene when they could just go read a tumblr they disagree with and become so angry.

I don't think it's a spoiler to say that Nudist Beach is going to continue to have a role in the story. Although I did not do a careful headcount, Nudist Beach has female personnel. So that was neat!

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby zaratustra » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:15 am

Friday wrote:You want my opinion? An empowered female is someone who does not give a fuck what society thinks of her choices. Hell, that's true for males as well.


OK, there's no way we'll ever get this from anime, because the Western concept of 'hero as someone that gives zero fucks except to those he/she themselves deem of need' barely exists (only exception I can think of: Kenshiro)

Manga (and what little manhwa I've read) seems to center in 'hero that is attached to a group by forces of circumstance and then does good by them by any means imaginable because NAKAMA'. There's very little in the way of "what you do if your group you are inserted into rejects the things you value".

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:15 pm

yeah on the one hand i feel bad about handwaving stuff from japanese culture as MOE(RO)S GONNA MOE(RO) but fuck if they're ever doing anything to actually change my opinion
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Mongrel » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:36 pm

I would like to think that at least our small pack of brontos is honest enough with themselves that none of us will ever treat a "The girl needs to show lots of skin because [contrived explanation]" seriously.

The way I've always thought about it is hey, you can either stand up and buy the Playboy magazine like you don't give two shits, or you can nervously tell the clerk - who really doesn't give two fucks - that you "buy it for the articles", all while constantly doing shoulder checks.

Now I know a lot of these shows have plenty of genuinely enjoyable story elements that put them above straight porn, so don't take it that I'm making a 1:1 equivocation. But you get the idea.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Brentai » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:49 pm

It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that KlK is pretty much just about the T&A but really it's just a very deliberate attempt at Anime: The Anime, and it isn't really responsible for just how much of the culture is comprised of that shit. Not that it really apologizes for it either.

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Mongrel » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:19 pm

Poe's Law probably applies here.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby TA » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:11 pm

Brentai wrote:It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that KlK is pretty much just about the T&A but really it's just a very deliberate attempt at Anime: The Anime, and it isn't really responsible for just how much of the culture is comprised of that shit. Not that it really apologizes for it either.


Basically all of this, yes. There's some complicated meta-narrative things there. It's like, the show would be worse if it dumped the fanservice angle, and not because yay fanservice, but because it means it'd be half-assing what it's trying to do. You need the whole ass.

That said, on a more narrative how-good-is-this-anime level, the show overall is god-tier.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:55 pm

Episode 7: By this point I'm enjoying that the show is tearing through gimmick-baddies that just about any other series could stretch out to fill entire episodes on their own, though it still seems a shame for some fun character designs to get wasted so quickly. Then again, that's one way to insure a thriving doujin scene. It also sets up the stinger well enough. The rags to riches to rag peak of the episode's A plot is pretty well worn territory, but most of the jokes involving it land. Mako continues to basically be the best. RIP, Two Star Fight Club Uniform.

Episode 8: Hooray, backstory for Ryuuko. Hooray, backstory for Gamagoori. Even the "calm before the storm" episode leading up to (presumably) the real rumble between Ryuuko and the elite 4 has its share of fun things, but the episode is lesser for not going whole hog with its every student for itself set-up and just using it as an excuse to launch a boss fight. If the show keeps up its pacing, it'll be nice to get answers to the central questions sooner rather than later, but if it opens the drag chute on "exactly what is Satsuki up to and how does it relate to the death of Ryuuko's father" then things could stall out. The breakneck nature makes it pretty impossible to guess where the show will be after another eight episodes, so that's a nice feeling.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Disposable Ninja » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:09 pm

Say hi to Nui
For the White Witch!

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Friday » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:47 am

The breakneck nature makes it pretty impossible to guess where the show will be after another eight episodes, so that's a nice feeling.


Oh, man, your idea? None.

That said, on a more narrative how-good-is-this-anime level, the show overall is god-tier.


I'm not gonna put it up on the same level of Bebop, which is my personal God-tier as far as anime is concerned, but yeah, it's close. The show manages to be incredibly fun while at the same time being incredibly legit dramatic.

(As opposed to, say, Game of Thrones, which is an awesome show but is not really any fun at all, or numerous other shows which are tons of fun but lack that kind of punch.)
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:04 pm

Episode 9: Almost a little disappointed now that the "wait until 1pm" gag wasn't a troll move to make an entire episode amount to nothing but waiting around. I really don't want to know how many doujin already exist between Ryuuko and Gamagoori's uniform. On the other hand, the literal "molding an ideal student" attack is pretty fucking brilliant. I'm a little sad that this show isn't more kid friendly just so we won't get tons of news stories about lacerations caused by toys of Ryuuko's secondary transformation. Join us next time when Ryuuko fights the internet.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby TA » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:17 pm

Friday wrote:
The breakneck nature makes it pretty impossible to guess where the show will be after another eight episodes, so that's a nice feeling.


Oh, man, your idea? None.

That said, on a more narrative how-good-is-this-anime level, the show overall is god-tier.


I'm not gonna put it up on the same level of Bebop, which is my personal God-tier as far as anime is concerned, but yeah, it's close. The show manages to be incredibly fun while at the same time being incredibly legit dramatic.

(As opposed to, say, Game of Thrones, which is an awesome show but is not really any fun at all, or numerous other shows which are tons of fun but lack that kind of punch.)


It's only episode 23, so there's still plenty of time to completely screw the pooch - Utawarerumono, for instance, was amazing up until it managed to ruin itself in the last two episodes. Hell, Trigun botched it all in the last 30 seconds of the last episode. But assuming that they don't do that, and the conclusion is as satisfying and awesome as the show's been so far?

I put my god-tier at Bebop, Madoka, and Gurren Lagann. And I think KILL la KILL is matching up.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Smiler » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:51 pm

TA wrote:It's only episode 23, so there's still plenty of time to completely screw the pooch - Utawarerumono, for instance, was amazing up until it managed to ruin itself in the last two episodes. Hell, Trigun botched it all in the last 30 seconds of the last episode.


Are you saying that you expected an anime adaptation of an h-game to not be disappointing?

Anyways yeah it could still end up sucking.

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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:04 pm

Episode 10: The more they do backstories, the more I'm wondering if we're going to pull back to the state of the entire world at some point and not just Japan. There's been enough talk of Honnouji having basically conquered all of Japan to make me wonder if there's some greater thing going on with the world. Or if they're building super-students to fight the oncoming alien invasion, Ender's Game style. If this were a thirteen episode series we'd be right on track to get through the Devas and then the climactic finale battle with Satsuki and the ultimate answers to what's going on, but obviously it's not going that way. Also, challenges against student council members on a giant towering suspended platform with the catalyst of a revolution overhead; still Utena vibing here, which is my own personal god-tier. More vibes that the Godrobe has the potential to cause some kind of disaster by evolving too quickly with the third transformation and some hint that some shit is going down / has gone down with Satsuki's mother or family. Jakuzure's skeletal uniform is baller, and that was a hell of a Flutano Circus.

Episode 11: Pigtail spirals and a giant pink parasol and a weird facial thing. Sound the Niku's Waifu alarm. We finally get an energy beam tug of war fight. C'mon Jakuzure, you should know that's instrumental to a fighting anime. I wonder if there's something relevant going on with Ryuuko's hair having the two-toned undercarriage along with Satsuki's mother having the same thing. Visual shorthand for some Godrobe connection? Can't remember now if Satsuki had the same thing going on in hers. Relentlessly cheerful, unstoppably powerful, and a cold blooded murderer? Hi, Nui. You're the kind of anime trope that keeps on giving. That was a good swerve ending, even if "Satsuki's not the one with the other blade" has been pretty foregone from the beginning.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby Niku » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:22 pm

Episode 12: Flashbacks make it facts. RIP Dr. Matoi, you had a really cool character design. Oh, and here we go, the other shoe finally drops on the sentient blood eating monster the protagonist has been strapped into. Though speaking of cool character designs, Berserker Senketsu is fucking great. That's a master-class in using an off-kilter look that doesn't fit right with everything else around it to create nightmare fuel. Mako getting her big hero moment was pretty much what she and Ryuuko have been building up to the entire series so far. It's pretty much the only way the episode could have ended, but their character relationship has been done well enough to make it well-earned and it kept Mako entirely in character. Even if part of me expected things to get wicked fucking dark for a second and have Nui just cut her down. Looks like from the stinger, it's time to head outside of Honnouji for a bit.

Episode 13: Here we have both our plot escalation and our protagonist-in-doubt episode. REVOCS = COVERS is one of those things I feel stupid for not noticing in the first place though I guess I didn't necessarily have any reason to take notice of it. Bringing original sin into the situation gives me the feeling shit is about to get craycray. Between that and Nudist Beach, is everyone just trying to get the world to descend back into nakedness? Speaking of feeling dumb, taking note New Clearly Not Saying What He's Actually Up To Student's hairstyle struck me immediately, but I didn't get the significance of the placement. Super curious as to what the distribution of Senketsu is going to mean in the next episode (or several?). Continuing to love it whenever the titles become physical objects in the world.

Episode 14: It's good to see the other schools are, in fact, as insane as Honnouji is. Abekamo even has their own elite four based on the four animal gods. The creative application of school clubs into superpowers continues to be one of the best things this show has going for it. Of course Kobe would use beef as armor. Of course. Ryuuko's determinism grows every stronger. I could really go for some takoyaki now.
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Re: Kill la Kill: nani sore

Postby TA » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:41 pm

Smiler wrote:
TA wrote:It's only episode 23, so there's still plenty of time to completely screw the pooch - Utawarerumono, for instance, was amazing up until it managed to ruin itself in the last two episodes. Hell, Trigun botched it all in the last 30 seconds of the last episode.


Are you saying that you expected an anime adaptation of an h-game to not be disappointing?

Anyways yeah it could still end up sucking.


Well, yeah. Up through episode 24, the show was superlative - fleshed-out characters with involved relationships, lots of drama and lots of really excellent character interaction, good mystery, and a really fascinating plot. Then it dropped some story bombs that were total gibberish, and it all fell apart. Being an adaptation of an H-game had nothing to do with it. There's a reason the game got console ports that just cut the H scenes and left the rest intact - none of that was plot-important, and you lost nothing but the porn when you cut out the porny bits.

Anyway, pretty princess dressup anime. Finally got around to watching ep. 23. This is real fuckin' interesting, especially with that little post-credits bit. Killing the Original Life Fiber - if it even is actually dead which I dunno man - is not a detriment to Ragyo's plan? Why is Hooumaru so significant to Ragyo's godrobe? What exactly is the deal, agh, I can't wait until the next one.

It is, perhaps, fitting that Ragyo is one of the most stylish villains in a thing. Like, from her very first appearance on, lady is just style personified. I love it. And her fucking song, my god.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

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