Game of Thrones: The TV Show

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zaratustra
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby zaratustra » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:56 am

Cracked points out GoT may be killed by its own success. Season 5 will take books 4 and 5 in parallel, and presumably Season 6 as well. Book 6 might come out in time for Season 7, but at a rate of one book per five years, they either have to rush GRRM, end the series prematurely, spoil things early (pissing off the book readers for once) or extend the series beyond 2020.

Stretching the series may sound attractive (and pretty much any non-teen actor in the series can take 10 years to the face without much disbelief) but GoT is super expensive to make and a reduction in ratings might kill it.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Mothra » Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:07 am

This is going to be just like when Full Metal Alchemist caught up to the manga and they decided to close out the series by revealing that everyone was an alt-universe nazi.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Niku » Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:13 am

As far as I've heard, during their SUPER SECRET meeting with GRRM D&D came to a TV series-only ending once they'd discussed FuturePlot.

Which I almost really hope is just a black screen with white text blurting out everything that's supposed to happen next.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:48 pm

Mother Jones: Hodor has a severe case of expressive aphasia.

That's one of the things I really love about Martin's world: he deals a lot with medical conditions that modern science has described in detail but which the characters don't understand.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:27 pm

And another link:

Chart shows which chapters have been adapted where in the show.

It's very mildly spoilery in that the X-axis is chapter titles and therefore names some of the characters who are still alive in the books (up to and including the sample chapters of the next book which have been released so far); if that concerns you there are less spoilery versions, one which names only the chapters that have been adapted and another with no chapter names.

The corresponding Reddit thread is, of course, much more spoilery.

Anyhow, if you want a graphical representation of how the show's had to rejigger the pacing of the last two books, it's pretty cool seeing it laid out like that.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby TA » Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:57 pm

Okay, even having gone back and reread the chapters in question, I am completely baffled as to how they claim those two Book 1 chapters were in Season 4.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:06 am

I think they're referring to the discussion of the Crown's debt to the Iron Bank. There's more in the Reddit thread.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Büge » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:44 am

Yeah, but... Reddit.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:38 pm

Tages-Anzeiger: But also, some people are worried that it's not going to be finished. I mean, there is the possibility, I don't know if you want to talk about this...
Martin: I find that question pretty offensive, frankly, when people start speculating about my death and my health. So, fuck you to those people.

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Good for him. I'm looking forward to the next book too, but speculating about when somebody's going to die is pretty fucking gross.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:57 pm

I don't blame him in the least and I think that once he's been asked and has told folks off, then nobody has any business on a personal level asking him the question.

But it IS interesting to ask. And there may be business partners that do have a very legitimate right to ask for a "succession plan". That's a long-established thing in business. I mean, never mind that he's not young or that he's got a few extra pounds - it's risk even if he's young and healthy. He could be run over by a car or whatever. From a business perspective, a question about succession/disaster planning for such a large, elaborate project with so much money behind it, is not just valid to ask about the risk of death, it could potentially be negligent not to ask about it when so much of the business rests on one person.

The issue is that there are two different things going on here. There's businessess asking fair questions of their lead content creator and primary license holder, and there's fans and reporters asking very personal and inappropriate questions (or worse, making crass speculations) of an individual.

Needless to say the former have no obligation to share with the latter. But there are some people who I would say who do have a right and an obligation to ask.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby zaratustra » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:01 pm

We all remember Robert Jordan, is the thing.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby TA » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:14 pm

I don't know that it's really morbid speculation about the day of his death, at least for most people? Just more that he is 65 years old and has a tendency to write page-long descriptions of meals, so people are worried for him.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:25 pm

People aren't worried for him, they're worried about whether or not they're going to get the entertainment product they want to get.

If you're legitimately worried about another person's health, for compassionate and humane reasons, you don't frame it in terms of whether or not he'll die before finishing the job you want him to finish.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:24 pm

Thad wrote:People aren't worried for him, they're worried about whether or not they're going to get the entertainment product they want to get.

If you're legitimately worried about another person's health, for compassionate and humane reasons, you don't frame it in terms of whether or not he'll die before finishing the job you want him to finish.

Yeah, that's where it becomes ghoulish.

That's why the business angle must be framed as "Okay, this is larger than you or I. Many people's livelihoods depend on this project and you are a single point of failure for the entire project. Please let me know what, if any, are your contingency plans." In that circumstance it is fully right and fair for the creator's business partners to worry about whether or not they're going to get the product they want to get.

But again, those people have no obligation to share that information with the public. Especially if the creator has very specifically requested that as a condition for sharing such confidential and sensitive information.

And in GRRM's defence, it seems the show's creators have obliquely referenced the fact that they have lots of non-public information about future storylines. It's very possible that GRRM DOES consider the possibility of an untimely death (at least in the privacy of his own head), does indeed have contingency measures in place, and has at least told the showrunners "Yes, there is something in place", even if he hasn't given them full details.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:55 pm

Right, people who have a business interest in the pace of Martin's writing have a right to ask questions -- not just about what they're going to do if he dies, but what they're going to do if he simply doesn't keep pace with the TV show for whatever reason.

People who just want more books, though -- well, George R R Martin is not your bitch.

(Sidenote: Chrome's autocomplete suggested "George R R Martin is not your fault", which is hilarious.)

I mean, I understand Zara's point about Wheel of Time, but Gaiman nailed it:

You're complaining about George doing other things than writing the books you want to read as if your buying the first book in the series was a contract with him: that you would pay over your ten dollars, and George for his part would spend every waking hour until the series was done, writing the rest of the books for you.

No such contract existed. You were paying your ten dollars for the book you were reading, and I assume that you enjoyed it because you want to know what happens next.


I'm going to be sad if Martin dies at a comparatively young age. And yeah, I'm going to be disappointed if he never finishes the books, for whatever reason, and somebody else (inevitably) has to pick up the torch.

But I hear about the shit he's out there doing -- fixing up an old movie theater, fundraising for a wolf sanctuary -- and I don't blame him for one damn minute. He's doing the kind of stuff I'd love to do if I had the kind of money he does, and it sounds a hell of a lot more fun than trying to hammer out the logistics of the story up to this point and figure out how to bring it home.

There's a case to be made that he owes something to his agent, his publisher, and his licensees. But he doesn't owe anything to the fans speculating about his lifespan.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:01 pm

It occurs to me that nobody better ever tell those fans about Nikolai Gogol.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:30 pm

I thought Gaiman's post contained a comment that Dark Tower took 26 years to finish, there were fans who started reading it and died without ever getting to finish it, and if King had died in that car accident nobody would have ever known how it ended. But it's not in there so I must have read it somewhere else, possibly some other post expanding on Gaiman's initial point which I can't find just at the moment.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Thad » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:54 pm

Okay, finally caught up with the finale. Some interesting changes.

It's been a month so I'm not going to tag spoilers from the show; assume any spoiler tags are book spoilers.

Mothra wrote:I can't believe The Hound is fucking dead.


We don't see a body. He hasn't shown back up in the books since that scene (though we get confirmation of his death from a possibly-unreliable narrator) but I'm very much of the opinion that he's still alive.

Some surprises:

The show's killed off a few characters who are still alive in the books: Gren, Pyp, and Jojen.

Bran's whole sequence was a surprise -- I figured they'd stretch the journey beyond the Wall a bit, introduce Coldhands, all that stuff. Instead, he's damn-near caught up to the books; seems like there's maybe two, three chapters' worth of shit left for him to do.

Conjecture: Bran's going to use his developing psychic powers to show us some flashbacks. The show hasn't really done flashbacks up to this point, but recent casting information suggests we're at least going to see Cersei as a child, so flashbacks may be on the menu now. I think they'd be a good idea, both to give Bran something to do and to spell out some of the backstory that's been covered in the books but not the show.

Then again, exposition without tits? That's crazy talk.

Jaime and Tyrion's final scene was pared down to almost nothing. It was pretty satisfying but it dropped an entire conversation from the book that was Pretty Important. I can see why they did, because it's been three years since we heard Tyrion's Tragic Origin Story on the show, but still.

Spoilers for book thing that didn't happen on show:

So remember the story about how Tyrion saved a girl from bandits and then married her, and then Tywin talked Jaime into confessing she was a whore he'd hired to fake the whole thing?

Turns out that last part was the lie. She was exactly what she seemed to be, and Tywin made up the part about her being a whore as a convenient way to get rid of her.

Meaning that when he then had all his men throw her coins and then have sex with her in front of Tyrion, yeah, that was gang rape right there.

Jaime's been pretty wracked with guilt over this in the years since, and finally unburdens himself to Tyrion. After, he asks Tyrion, one last time, if he really killed Joffrey; Tyrion, who is pretty fucking furious after what he's just heard, lies and says "Yes, I killed your loathsome son."


I am pretty confident all of this stuff is going to be important later on in the books.

The scene with Tywin and Tyrion is much the same as in the book, but Tysha, not Shae, is the woman Tywin curses for a whore right before Tyrion shoots him.

Talking of Tywin, I'm surprised they kept the Shae scene intact; it sure didn't feel like it was going to go that way on the show to me. Agree/disagree?

Oh, and Varys doesn't leave with Tyrion in the book. That's an interesting change that I'm hoping will bear some fruit.

Wonder if we'll be seeing Magister Illyrio again? That's where Varys sends him in the book, but I can see Varys taking his place in the story on the show.

Another aside: Varys's "What have you done?" (and his other, more extensive "Don't do this" protests in the book) aside, I think he wanted Tywin to die and indeed intentionally set things up so that would be the likely outcome. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Varys's ultimate goal is a united Westeros prepared to fight the wights, and he thinks the best way to do that is to put a Targaryen on the throne. Up to this point that's meant bolstering the Lannisters to wipe out the other challengers, but now that that's (mostly) handled he's shifting gears to take down the Lannisters and create a power vacuum.

And then Brienne versus the Hound: Jesus. That was new. And a really fucking wonderful, brutal fight scene, the likes of which we've never seen before on this show.

And the Hound's death scene was probably the best sequence of the episode. McCann and Williams both killed it. Williams, in particular, did a hell of a lot with what was almost entirely a blank stare -- that shows, yet again, a remarkable talent from Williams and quite a bit of courage from Benioff, Wise, and Graves in choosing to put the scene together that way.

Oh, and not using the last scene from the book: I'm a bit surprised but I like the closer they went with instead. I think the end of the book would work fine as a cliffhanger ending for any episode, finale or no.

Anything I'm forgetting? Probably!

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby TA » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:37 pm

I've said it elsewhere, I think, but not having Coldhands there isn't super-surprising. He's not really that important to what all happens - the Reeds did the same thing pretty convincingly - and his appearance in the show would in and of itself be a book spoiler. Either he's played by the same actor who played Benjen Stark, or he's not, but in both cases that gives something big away.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show

Postby Mothra » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:44 pm

Really want to believe you regarding the Hound, buuuuut I'm pretty certain he's dead. He was wounded in the middle of a gigantic field.

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