Star Wars
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars
Rey is Luke except on top of everything she fights off a trained force user in her first movie. Fight me Mongrel.
Re: Star Wars
...I mean, it's Star Wars. Basically everybody is a Mary Sue except for C-3PO.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars
I don't object to calling Luke a Mary Sue.
He was a more entertaining one though. Say what you want about "whiny farm boy" but at least it's an ethos identity. Luke has SOMETHING going on to explain who he is and what he's doing. Rey is practically a void.
And his supporting cast was infinitely better. Two movies in and Poe is still "hothead" - compare that to how far Han had come by the end of Empire. I mean, I guess I like Finn, kinda? (Well, in Poe's defence I guess he spent almost the entire first movie as a macguffin rather than an actual character).
And has essentially no back story she can remember!
I mean, to be fair, I generally hate any story where the protagonist is a "chosen one" or tied to a prophecy of any sort (unless we're talking like... various classical mythology). At least Star Wars had the twist that Luke was just the hapless son of the Chosen One.
He was a more entertaining one though. Say what you want about "whiny farm boy" but at least it's an ethos identity. Luke has SOMETHING going on to explain who he is and what he's doing. Rey is practically a void.
And his supporting cast was infinitely better. Two movies in and Poe is still "hothead" - compare that to how far Han had come by the end of Empire. I mean, I guess I like Finn, kinda? (Well, in Poe's defence I guess he spent almost the entire first movie as a macguffin rather than an actual character).
beatbandito wrote:Rey is Luke except on top of everything she fights off a trained force user in her first movie. Fight me Mongrel.
And has essentially no back story she can remember!
I mean, to be fair, I generally hate any story where the protagonist is a "chosen one" or tied to a prophecy of any sort (unless we're talking like... various classical mythology). At least Star Wars had the twist that Luke was just the hapless son of the Chosen One.
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars
I would say Finn is the Han, who started out just going along with things the way they were, but learns that he needs to stand up for what's right with his friends. Maybe a little / lot more direct with less snarkiness, but same idea.
Rey is of course Luke who's life was shit until some old dude tells them they're special and then suddenly they're the best at everything.
Poe is the Leia. Hotheaded and the actual connection to the rebels who at first is just trying to complete the mission but learns to work with the friends they make along the way. Plus at the end of the second movie people are ready for Han / Finn to give them some dick already.
Rey is of course Luke who's life was shit until some old dude tells them they're special and then suddenly they're the best at everything.
Poe is the Leia. Hotheaded and the actual connection to the rebels who at first is just trying to complete the mission but learns to work with the friends they make along the way. Plus at the end of the second movie people are ready for Han / Finn to give them some dick already.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars
I can see that they're sort of trying to do that. It's just that none of them feel like strong characters at all, even after two films.
When I think of Han or Leia, there's dozens of great lines and moments which come to mind. Even Luke has great moments in Empire and RotJ. But if I think of Finn, I mostly think of him just sort of flopping around like a fish out of water in various scenes, albeit Trying To Do the Right Thing. If I think of Poe, it's pretty much just the mutiny scene. If I think of Rey it's the mirror scene where she (and the audience) still gets no answers about anything - I mean shit... Holdo is a more fleshed-out character with better scenes than Rey.
In fairness, part of that is that they're sharing screen time with the old-timers (and it feels like the new folks are losing for timeshare vs the OG, though obviously I haven't sat there timing it out). But that still comes down to poor writing designed to service a demand for the OG over actually writing a new story.
Which also raises the question "Does the new trilogy feels like "Fanfic" because JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson are outright bad directors/writers or more because the whole Star Wars Disney project is burdened by a seeming need for grossly excessive fan pandering (which may or may not be on the directors)?" Of course, it can be both.
At the end of the day, I'm with Mark Hamill, who made it a pretty open secret that he thinks the way things ended up just doesn't feel right.
When I think of Han or Leia, there's dozens of great lines and moments which come to mind. Even Luke has great moments in Empire and RotJ. But if I think of Finn, I mostly think of him just sort of flopping around like a fish out of water in various scenes, albeit Trying To Do the Right Thing. If I think of Poe, it's pretty much just the mutiny scene. If I think of Rey it's the mirror scene where she (and the audience) still gets no answers about anything - I mean shit... Holdo is a more fleshed-out character with better scenes than Rey.
In fairness, part of that is that they're sharing screen time with the old-timers (and it feels like the new folks are losing for timeshare vs the OG, though obviously I haven't sat there timing it out). But that still comes down to poor writing designed to service a demand for the OG over actually writing a new story.
Which also raises the question "Does the new trilogy feels like "Fanfic" because JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson are outright bad directors/writers or more because the whole Star Wars Disney project is burdened by a seeming need for grossly excessive fan pandering (which may or may not be on the directors)?" Of course, it can be both.
At the end of the day, I'm with Mark Hamill, who made it a pretty open secret that he thinks the way things ended up just doesn't feel right.
Re: Star Wars
I actually kinda liked how 8 was willing to devote a good hefty chunk of its running time to the newbies completely fucking up and making everything objectively worse than if they'd done nothing.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars
Thad wrote:I actually kinda liked how 8 was willing to devote a good hefty chunk of its running time to the newbies completely fucking up and making everything objectively worse than if they'd done nothing.
Yeah, this was actually one of the good points of 8.
I don't know how much it ties into that, but the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that the one character I genuinely, unconditionally, like from any of the new films is Rose (Finn's scenes with her are some of 8's best bits IMO, which helps my opinion of Finn).
Rose is pretty much the diametric opposite of Rey in terms of following a path to becoming a hero (which may well be an intentional contrast), meaningful as opposed to meaningless. The Roses of the world are very much my favourite sort of hero, embodying that quality the British quaintly refer to as "pluck".
Note that I only think this applies to the Rebel side. Hux being a cartoonish buffoon more akin to a bumbling cadet than the commander of a vast armada has been inexcusable from day one (and for all that he's ridiculous, he's not even good comic relief). I think Kylo Ren would have been served much better as a character by being balanced by a Tarkin or even a Piett, rather than a frat-boy Ozzel.
Re: Star Wars
I'm sure there's going to be a lot of analysis trying to figure out why Solo bombed, but I really think it comes down to this more than anything:
I do think there's a lot that Disney needs to fix about the Star Wars franchise, and that it's too safe and samey. But really, I think the single biggest reason people aren't flocking to see Solo is that Disney vastly overestimated the market appeal of Han Solo played by somebody other than Harrison Ford.
I do think there's a lot that Disney needs to fix about the Star Wars franchise, and that it's too safe and samey. But really, I think the single biggest reason people aren't flocking to see Solo is that Disney vastly overestimated the market appeal of Han Solo played by somebody other than Harrison Ford.
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Brantly B.
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Re: Star Wars
I think they've vastly overestimated the appeal of Star Wars in general.
I'm waiting to see Solo on the small screen. I want to see it. As far as I can tell modern Star Wars fans fall cleanly into two camps, those who liked Rogue One and didn't like Solo, and those who didn't like Rogue One but like Solo. I didn't like Rogue One (that much), so that makes me optimistic about Solo.
But I don't feel any need to go sit in a theater to experience it, and everyone I know who I'd go see it with has either done so already and doesn't want to do so again, or just can't be bothered. There was a Star Wars movie last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and there will be one next year. It isn't a special event. If I need a spectacle, I can go catch the tail end of Infinity War's run or I can wait a month or so and there'll probably be some other loud and colorful superhero movie. It's not that damned important.
I think I'm not alone and I think this movie will do very well in ancillary revenue but I'm hoping the studio takes this as a sign that they need to pump the brakes a little bit. And they probably will, because studios don't understand a lot of subtleties but they definitely understand "the goose stopped laying golden eggs."
Also:
That was my least favorite thing about 8 but I think on reflection it wasn't that the good guys fuck up, because of course they have to because it's Empire, but that the sum total consequence of their failure is "more people died off-camera than normally would have".
I'm waiting to see Solo on the small screen. I want to see it. As far as I can tell modern Star Wars fans fall cleanly into two camps, those who liked Rogue One and didn't like Solo, and those who didn't like Rogue One but like Solo. I didn't like Rogue One (that much), so that makes me optimistic about Solo.
But I don't feel any need to go sit in a theater to experience it, and everyone I know who I'd go see it with has either done so already and doesn't want to do so again, or just can't be bothered. There was a Star Wars movie last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and there will be one next year. It isn't a special event. If I need a spectacle, I can go catch the tail end of Infinity War's run or I can wait a month or so and there'll probably be some other loud and colorful superhero movie. It's not that damned important.
I think I'm not alone and I think this movie will do very well in ancillary revenue but I'm hoping the studio takes this as a sign that they need to pump the brakes a little bit. And they probably will, because studios don't understand a lot of subtleties but they definitely understand "the goose stopped laying golden eggs."
Also:
I actually kinda liked how 8 was willing to devote a good hefty chunk of its running time to the newbies completely fucking up and making everything objectively worse than if they'd done nothing.
That was my least favorite thing about 8 but I think on reflection it wasn't that the good guys fuck up, because of course they have to because it's Empire, but that the sum total consequence of their failure is "more people died off-camera than normally would have".
Re: Star Wars
the real lesson is don't cross lord and miller
Re: Star Wars
Thad wrote:I do think there's a lot that Disney needs to fix about the Star Wars franchise, and that it's too safe and samey. But really, I think the single biggest reason people aren't flocking to see Solo is that Disney vastly overestimated the market appeal of Han Solo played by somebody other than Harrison Ford.
It's not just that. MovieBob did a video recently analyzing why Solo didn't do so well at the box office, and his conclusion seemed to be that Solo was the answer to questions that no one outside of the die-hard sect of nostalgic, lore-obsessed fans were asking.
Say what you will about Rogue One, at least it revolved around characters that stood on their own, with story arcs that began and ended within the span of the film.
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars
Brentai wrote:I actually kinda liked how 8 was willing to devote a good hefty chunk of its running time to the newbies completely fucking up and making everything objectively worse than if they'd done nothing.
That was my least favorite thing about 8 but I think on reflection it wasn't that the good guys fuck up, because of course they have to because it's Empire, but that the sum total consequence of their failure is "more people died off-camera than normally would have".
This basically mirrors my feelings on the movie. Subverting expectations is a good thing, but it needs to have meaning. Poe was wrong about Laura Dern and it worked out basically the same as if he had done his plan. Bodega and Rose mess up every aspect of their plan and... happen to be totally fine because of other stuff that's happening.
Rey's parentage reveal has exactly the same impact if the first shot of Force Awakens was Rey finding a box she can't open and then Snoke revealing the box was empty. If it is an entirely meta reveal, it's not a reveal.
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Brantly B.
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Re: Star Wars
The thing that makes me roll my eyes at the Rey thing is that the only reason to believe there was something special going on there was because we kept getting told there was. I'd be more annoyed about it if it wasn't a very Star Wars thing to do, establish a plot point in the first movie and then be like "surprise, that was a lie all along!" in the second.
Re: Star Wars
I'd like to be able to give even a tiny shit about Rey or Star Wars but TLJ literally made me realize that Star Wars is a fucking waste of time to even think about or discuss.
I'm not chiding you guys for discussing it or anything. But I personally just have checked out. Like Brent said, it's just not even remotely important, or even noteworthy. They're just bullshit corporate safe movies churned out as fast as possible to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible by milking a brand.
tl;dr: Remember when RLM reviewed TFA and it was hardly about the movie itself and was more a look forward into what Star Wars was going to become and then it became that? I mean, I am not fucking joking around when I said I can't wait till Episode 13: Solo part 3: the Revenge of Darth Maul. These movies are fucking schlock of the actual highest possible order. If you enjoy schlock, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with schlock. But stop pretending it's anything but Dragonlance book 24: The Adventures of Raistlin the Time Traveler and also some kids of characters from the original trilogy.
I'm not chiding you guys for discussing it or anything. But I personally just have checked out. Like Brent said, it's just not even remotely important, or even noteworthy. They're just bullshit corporate safe movies churned out as fast as possible to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible by milking a brand.
tl;dr: Remember when RLM reviewed TFA and it was hardly about the movie itself and was more a look forward into what Star Wars was going to become and then it became that? I mean, I am not fucking joking around when I said I can't wait till Episode 13: Solo part 3: the Revenge of Darth Maul. These movies are fucking schlock of the actual highest possible order. If you enjoy schlock, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with schlock. But stop pretending it's anything but Dragonlance book 24: The Adventures of Raistlin the Time Traveler and also some kids of characters from the original trilogy.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars
I think it just makes me sad that we never got and probably never will get more stories about that universe which are actually spectacular and good. They don't even have to be *AS* good as the OT... just kind of close would be enough. Like, do something - anything - with this amazing universe that isn't shit, FFS.
There was that time when TFA's first teaser trailer was out and it felt so good. I really had "a new hope" for a little while.
Only it turned out that that one lonely, brief snippet was maybe the best piece of Star Wars film to come out since the Disney acquisition, maybe even since the OT.
I've said it before, but I'd pay a hell of a lot of money to see the prequel story done right, as a true classical tragedy, centred around an Anakin who actually seems awesome and heroic.
Alas...
Anyway, I completely agree with you on the checking out. I doubt I'll be seeing a Star Wars movie of any sort in the theatre, if at all anymore. I have absolutely zero interest in seeing episode 9 or Solo or some portended Boba Fett movie or whatever other crap they're going to pull out of their ass. I just don't care anymore about anything Disney's going to bring out.
There was that time when TFA's first teaser trailer was out and it felt so good. I really had "a new hope" for a little while.
Only it turned out that that one lonely, brief snippet was maybe the best piece of Star Wars film to come out since the Disney acquisition, maybe even since the OT.
I've said it before, but I'd pay a hell of a lot of money to see the prequel story done right, as a true classical tragedy, centred around an Anakin who actually seems awesome and heroic.
Alas...
Anyway, I completely agree with you on the checking out. I doubt I'll be seeing a Star Wars movie of any sort in the theatre, if at all anymore. I have absolutely zero interest in seeing episode 9 or Solo or some portended Boba Fett movie or whatever other crap they're going to pull out of their ass. I just don't care anymore about anything Disney's going to bring out.
Re: Star Wars
I made a post about box office trends and memorial day but I deleted it because eh, don't really matter.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars
I saw it! It seemed fine! I mean, it boiled down to "Memorial Day is still a terrible date to release movies", but that's correct.
As Thad said, Disney's the one to blame - they wanted to put out SW movies as fast as they could and banked on Star Wars being a big draw no matter what day it is. With the fans not automatically making SOLO a megahit, maybe they'll slow down. Maybe.
As Thad said, Disney's the one to blame - they wanted to put out SW movies as fast as they could and banked on Star Wars being a big draw no matter what day it is. With the fans not automatically making SOLO a megahit, maybe they'll slow down. Maybe.
Re: Star Wars
Brentai wrote:I'm waiting to see Solo on the small screen.
A secondary market which Disney seems to be actively sabotaging with its whole "we're gonna take everything off Netflix and try to get people to sign up for our new streaming service" plan.
If I need a spectacle, I can go catch the tail end of Infinity War's run or I can wait a month or so and there'll probably be some other loud and colorful superhero movie.
This is also part of the problem: Disney probably should not have released the two movies so close together. (And this after bumping Infinity War up a week.)
I think I'm not alone and I think this movie will do very well in ancillary revenue but I'm hoping the studio takes this as a sign that they need to pump the brakes a little bit. And they probably will, because studios don't understand a lot of subtleties but they definitely understand "the goose stopped laying golden eggs."
I think they're definitely going to take a lesson from this, I just don't know if it's going to be the right lesson.
Keep in mind that the lesson studio execs took from Batman and Robin was "superhero movies don't sell anymore."
Friday wrote:But stop pretending it's anything but Dragonlance book 24: The Adventures of Raistlin the Time Traveler
That was book 4.
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