Batman (created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane)

[Blossom]

Alls I can say is, if the Joker shows up in that, he better have his mustache.

[Thad]

The Ellison episode was about Two-Face, so I don't think Joker's likely to appear. Unless Wein tweaks it in some way.

But there IS an ongoing digital-first Batman '66 comic, and it does indeed feature the Joker with a mustache under his makeup. Check out issue #3's cover by Mike and Laura Allred; it's the wallpaper on my cell phone.

(I'm pretty sure Mike Allred had the original art for that cover in his portfolio when I met him at Phoenix Comicon last year; if it wasn't that, it was a similar Batman '66 piece. I remember thinking "I don't know what he wants for that but I know it's more than I can afford, but man if I were in the market for original comic book art that'd be the top of my list." But I did get his autograph, and Laura's too, on my copy of X-Force #116.)

IIRC Catwoman is Julie Newmar in some issues and Eartha Kitt in others, and nobody acknowledges any difference.

[Thad]

Batman '66: The Complete Series available for preorder on Blu-Ray ($190 as of this writing, preorder low-price guarantee), DVD ($150).

(Both links are affiliate links.)

There's a season 1 set due out for $40 but I don't see it listed on Amazon yet. If you're not interested in extras then the season set is the cheapest way to go (assuming seasons 2 and 3 won't be more expensive).

[Thad]

Sims says Gotham's pilot is exactly what I expected: a muddled mess of a show with a really good cast.

I'm still onboard, for the aforementioned cast.

And my wife watches almost nothing but questionable police procedurals anyway, so it's one more to throw on the pile.

[Thad]

So I heard some good things about the Batman Beyond comic and its new creative team and thought hey, maybe I should give it another chance.

Nope! Bleeding Cool has some pages from the latest issue -- which FINALLY REVEALS THE MYSTERY OF HOW BRUCE AND DICK FELL OUT, except they already fucking did that in the very first arc when they brought Dick into the story in the first goddamn place -- and...yep, still horrifying and vile.

Nice art, though.

[Grath]

I didn't know Bruce hates bananas.

[Blossom]

That's pretty fucked up, yeah, but it was no less fucked up in the shows.

[Thad]

No less fucked up? I'm going to have to disagree with that.

It was pretty squicky (Bruce dating his adoptive son's ex-girlfriend who's also his best friend's daughter and who's at least a decade younger than him -- there's really no way to spin that positively) but there's no pregnancy, no miscarriage, and indeed not necessarily even any cheating on Dick. (It's been awhile, but don't they even say their relationship was after Dick left town, implying he and Barbara had called it quits?)

This is definitely worse.

[Thad]

I've gone and inadvertently started a discussion on the correct pronunciation of Ra's al Ghul on AV Club.

This guy seems like he knows what he's talking about:

But, uh, it's a sin, not a shin. رأس الغول. And it has a glottal stop in the middle. It should be [raʔs] or [raʔis], depending on which version of the word one uses, and the rest should be [ʔɑl ʁul].

And if your IPA's as rusty as mine is (or you think I am talking about beer):

[Spanish-style trilled R]A + [sound of the "tt" in a Cockney version of "bottle"] + S, UHL, [trilled uvular R, similar to French R but somehow even smuttier, not an English sound]+OOL. I would be impressed if any native English speaker got it right, which is why I'm puzzled to see a pronunciation dispute focused on something that's not even the hard letter (ghayin).

So Denny O'Neil's "Raysh" would seem to be incorrect. Via this other guy (who I guess, from his other posts, works at or owns a comic shop):

From what I've read, Denny O'Neil asked his daughter, who was a language student at the time, how it should be pronounced, and through some miscommunication or just incorrect knowledge on one or both of their parts, "raysh" is what he settled on.

Later, in the "Birth of the Demon" graphic novel, they try to No-Prize retcon it as Ra's mispronouncing it on purpose to spite the village he came from/destroyed and the Sultanate that betrayed him.

Two of my favorite things: Batman trivia and linguistics.

[Thad]

Gotham is off too a pretty damn good start, I think. Not perfect, but pilots never are, and as pilots go this is the best one I've seen since Sleepy Hollow.

There are things to complain about -- they spend a little too much time holding the audience's hand explaining who Edward Nygma, Oswald Cobblepot, and the very-stupidly-named Ivy Pepper are (and "If I wanted riddles, I'd read the funny pages" doesn't even fucking make sense; the funny pages are comic strips, not riddles), and while I think having Gordon's fiancee be Montoya's ex is the most inspired idea the show's had so far, it lays it on WAY too thickly, to make absolutely sure that the audience understands that's what they're implying. And I'm also not sold on the "let's introduce a different possible Joker every week" idea, though I think it could still work if they just leave it dangling and ambiguous (and ideally never introduce the Joker at all).

(Namedrop the show DOESN'T dwell on: Captain Essen. Of course, given the nature of TV shows, that's because it may never get around to paying off; given that Gordon hasn't even married his first wife yet, the show may end or she may leave the cast or any number of things may happen before they get around to telling the story of his SECOND wife.)

The whole show is impeccably cast; Donal Logue is the standout, but I think we all knew that from the moment we heard "Donal Logue as Harvey Bullock". (They've combined Bullock with Flass here, which I think is a smart move; we see a Bullock who's more corrupt and nasty than the comic version, but who presumably has a redemption arc coming. Lots of potential for conflict there, but unlike Flass he's immediately likeable and has Gordon's back, despite the terrible compromises he's made.) But everybody else is great too; we don't get much of Sean Pertwee's Alfred yet, but he's good, and I totally buy the child actor they've got playing Bruce. We don't get much of Selina yet but I like her costume. Jada Pinkett Smith does a nice Eartha Kitt homage as Fish Mooney.

All in all, there's real potential here, and when the show stops dropping Easter eggs and starts building its own world, that's when I think the rubber's really going to meet the road.

[Bal]

I'm just not sure I give a shit about Gotham as a city without Batman. We know everything we really need to know about pre-Batman Gotham already. It was a crime infested hell hole which no one could do anything about. If someone could do something about it, there wouldn't be a Batman. That is to say, even with his parents murdered, if Bruce grew up watching the guilty being punished and the police not being a part of the problem, he probably wouldn't have pulled on the tights. So is this just a show about evil winning for 20 years until Bruce is ready to turn things around?

[Thad]

Could have sworn I'd said much the same thing earlier, but can't find the post.

Yeah, the show runs a couple of major risks, and you've nailed a couple of them: either we see the good guys consistently lose, or we see them win and there's not really much point to Batman.

It could very easily end up like Smallville, a show where Clark Kent fights Lex Luthor, Mr. Mxyzptlk, Brainiac, Bizarro, Doomsday, and Darkseid, fights alongside the JSA, the JLA, and the Legion of Superheroes, dates Lana Lang, marries Lois Lane, moves to Metropolis, and goes to work for the Daily Planet before he ever becomes Superman.

Or, it could decide to stop worrying about continuity and dropping Easter eggs and just be its own thing as a police procedural in a larger-than-life setting. There's potential in the over-the-top supervillains and how they clash with the Gritty Urban Setting; this could be a show where the cops wipe out ordinary crime but leave a power vacuum for the supervillains to occupy. (Traditionally it's Batman who does that, but I think it works fine if Jim does it and creates the need for Batman.)

Another option is that the show's more about Gordon cleaning up the PD and rising to Commissioner and less about him actually cleaning up crime on the streets.

I agree that I'm not sold on the elevator pitch, but I thought the show was perfectly decent, and as long as it's good I don't care so much about the logistics.

[Büge]

I thought you did, too Thad.

[Thad]

Buried in the Avengers thread on the old boards? Yeah, that'd do it.

Now, giving Jim Gordon his own series set before Batman comes to Gotham is a dumb idea, for reasons already covered by Chris Sims (tl;dr you either have a real downer of a show where Gordon gets his ass kicked every week and constantly loses, or you depict a Gotham PD that can take care of the problems in the city all by itself and UNDERMINE THE ENTIRE PREMISE OF BATMAN). But it still might be better than SHIELD.

But yeah it's off to a good start and so far I'd say it's MUCH better than SHIELD. (Definitely a better pilot.)

[Büge]

You never know. There could be an arc where the police able to hold crime at bay for a little while, but then police powers erode, like if a corrupt politician gets elected, or mob buyoffs/rubouts intensify, and the cops are forced to either do more with less or turn a blind eye.

[Thad]

like if a corrupt politician gets elected

You know, I've always liked the "Penguin for Mayor" plot.

[Thad]

My parents are DEEEEEEEEEAD supercut -- watch the Waynes' murder, nine times at once.

(A saw a comic at the shop recently -- Secret Origins: Batman. I am curious as to whether there is anything LESS secret than Batman's origin.)

[Bal]

I still have a really basic problem with the premise. Gotham wasn't run by super villains before Batman, it was just run by the god damned mob, and they literally owned the place. The only people who were immune to the corruption and mostly immune to the day to day problems with living in a motherfucking kleptocracy were people like the Waynes who were just too rich to be bothered. I'm sure we could get tons of mileage out of the police vs the mob, if the police weren't just a branch of the mob to start with. being the only good cop on the force only works for so long before you leave or someone kills you. I don't know of any serious version of Batman where Gordon et al were able to take control of the police back BEFORE Batman massively destabilized the mob's operations in Gotham. That's why vigilantism was basically sanctioned by Gordon in the first place, because the police not only couldn't do the job, they weren't to be trusted.

[Mongrel]

like if a corrupt politician gets elected

You know, I've always liked the "Penguin for Mayor" plot.

[Thad]

I still have a really basic problem with the premise. Gotham wasn't run by super villains before Batman, it was just run by the god damned mob, and they literally owned the place. The only people who were immune to the corruption and mostly immune to the day to day problems with living in a motherfucking kleptocracy were people like the Waynes who were just too rich to be bothered. I'm sure we could get tons of mileage out of the police vs the mob, if the police weren't just a branch of the mob to start with. being the only good cop on the force only works for so long before you leave or someone kills you. I don't know of any serious version of Batman where Gordon et al were able to take control of the police back BEFORE Batman massively destabilized the mob's operations in Gotham. That's why vigilantism was basically sanctioned by Gordon in the first place, because the police not only couldn't do the job, they weren't to be trusted.

All good points, and I am the last person who should tell anybody to stop overthinking the story structure and mythology of Batman. But despite my similar reservations, I'm surprised at how well the show's worked for me so far, despite doing a number of things I don't really like on principle (Selina having a connection to Bruce as a child, a possible Joker origin story, the Waynes' murder being a deliberate hit instead of a random act of violence, Alfred being the world's most impolite butler...).

Of course, it bears adding that all this shit's been retconned up and down the block since the 1940's. I love Year One, but it's just one of many versions of the origin story.

The real reason supervillains didn't exist in Gotham prior to Batman is that the first year of Batman was a thinly-veiled knockoff of The Shadow. Any other explanation is, itself, a retcon, just as much as Joe Chill having a name or the Waynes' murder being a hit.