Samurai Back

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 5:24 pm

The only exception I have with that trope is actually a few characters used as examples in that video. At least a few of the characters mentioned in the video for that trope are actually insanely intelligent characters that are fucked over by a language barrier (Leelo for instance).

For white people I'm sure its simple for most people to to see a character like Leelo and think she fits into this specific sexist trope but as someone whose entire older generation of their family does not have English as their first language I find that a bit... obtuse at best.

When you see Leelo's character, after she escapes her captors, the first time she speaks she's literally trying to warn the dumb ass white dude about the end of the fucking universe but he's too stupid to understand her language and then when she learns his languages she falls into the same problems that almost everyone who doesn't speak English as a first language does.

Because of her accent and 'cute' pronunciations of things everybody (up to and including the people who made this video about this trope) thinks she's stupid or kid level intelligence when in fact in her own language she's probably smarter than anyone else on screen (remember that Leelo is literally an all-knowing alien whose entire reason for existence is as protector of the universe).

There is a great scene in the TV show Modern Family of all things where the trophy wife Gloria has to deal with this to her own in-laws (she's the second wife of a rich old white man) and she ends up breaking down and just yelling at them, "You have no idea how smart I am in Spanish!" and then all her white in-laws (and mixed race son) grow the fuck up and stop treating her like a fucking idiot.

But of course this was literally all digression as it had nothing to do with Samurai Jack. I just had beef with that trope video.
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patito
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby patito » Tue May 09, 2017 5:25 pm

The problem really is that Jack is like 70 years old right now while Ashi is maybe 20 if you want to be generous. If I wanted that I'd be reading Twilight. It's very icky. I was full on board with Jack dying by the end and Ashi taking up the mantle as a better trope to use, but they had to make it creepy instead. But hey, at least nobody's head turned into a penis, just a fish.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 5:31 pm

Well yeah, that is definitely stupid and more than a little creepy/problematic. I think that a discussion should definitely be had about how BUSINESS decisions (not killing of your titular character) probably cause a lot of stupid STORY decisions in otherwise great media.

For example I hear the new movie was good but I'm honestly worried that the popularity of Baby Groot dancing to Micheal Jackson over the end credits of the last Guardians movie is going to absolutely ruin the current one by them just making it lousy with Baby Groot 'antics'.

And of course Tartakovsky has already said this was 'finishing off the Jack story' so all of these decisions were final, and therefore that much more problematic.
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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Tue May 09, 2017 7:37 pm

It's a ten episode season to end the series. Ashi and Jack have mirrored backgrounds that compliment each other, and the age difference is whatever, because it's a fucking cartoon. Also it's not like Jack is some worldly gentleman taking advantage of someone, he was at most ten when his world was destroyed, he then spent about a decade being turned in to a weapon (mirror to Ashi), and the next 50 in constant robot murder hell. It's first love for both of them, and nothing says it has to last.

Also I swear to god if I hear the word "problematic" to describe some vague neo-liberal unease again I'm going to shoot myself. It's a show with as many loony toons gags as action sequences, maybe chill the fuck out and have a good time. No one is being harmed here.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 7:54 pm

Whitesplainer in Chief over here. *slide whistle*

That you can't see how women are harmed by problematic representation in media is part of the problem. "Its a cartoon" isnt a fucking excuse either, most of the grossest media aimed at children is fucking cartoons.
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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Tue May 09, 2017 9:12 pm

I can see how women could be harmed in media. I just don't think this is such a case, and provided examples that have narrative validity. "It's a fucking cartoon" doesn't mean "it doesn't matter" it means "It's not likely to be as nuanced as you'd like". Do continue disregarding that due to my race though, it's relaxing.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm

I don't know if you overlooked it on purpose but I literally put the *slide whistle* in there to show I was making a joke. Short of me actually blowing a fucking slide whistle in your face as you read it I don't see how I could illustrate that further.

Also literally all complaining about a trope is is people complaining that media isn't as nuanced as it should be. That's generally the entire fucking reason problematic tropes are problematic .

So please, explain why media not being as nuanced as some might like isn't a valid complaint and when you do it make sure you seem to only consider your prospective as a white male... Damn, there should really be a term for that.
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MarsDragon
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby MarsDragon » Tue May 09, 2017 10:19 pm

If you can describe something as problematic you can describe the actual problem.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 10:23 pm

It was already explained before I joined the conversation and his argument seemed to boil down to, "you expect too much from media." Which is his opinion I guess but I mean thats a shitty opinion to have...

Also I don't think anyone here is saying Samurai Jack is the worst show ever, but fuck man, you can critique something you like or even love. Hell the shows and media that get 90 percent of it right should be the shows we should be allowed to encourage to make the final step.
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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Tue May 09, 2017 10:25 pm

You don't know what position I'm considering, you're projecting. When I say "I feel x" on a topic, I am speaking my opinion based on my experiences. I can't speak otherwise, because I choose only to speak for myself rather than project anything on to anyone else. Those experiences are of a white male, but one who is not uninformed or without experience on salient issues.

My opinion is that this instance of this trope is harmless. This trope can be harmful, Twilight is more or less the most disgusting thing to happen to young ladies views on love in my lifetime, but I view Ashi and Jack as harmless. If you don't, that's fine, but don't treat me like I'm some kind of red pill lunatic just because I think a cute romance between interesting and more or less equally inexperienced characters isn't really going to hurt anyone.

Also the slide whistle read to me more like you were smug, and literally calling me a whitesplaining clown than a signal for sarcasm.

Problematic is still a nonsense word thrown around way too often in a culture of talk big do nothing slacktavism that I hate. So put that in your slide whistle and smoke it I guess.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 10:39 pm

Two points,

One, if I thought you were a 'red pill lunatic' we wouldn't even be having this conversation, I have known you long enough to give you a lot more credit than that, dude.

Two, I also specifically worded my comments, "you seem to only consider your prospective" to prove that I don't know the positions you are considering but to also illustrate exactly the position it looks like you are considering.

Edit: Actually I have a third point upon reflection.

When I say "I feel x" on a topic, I am speaking my opinion based on my experiences. I can't speak otherwise, because I choose only to speak for myself rather than project anything on to anyone else.


This is actually a problem that a lot of "Allies" have. Roxane Gay said it best when she said that until privileged people are able to take on these problems that we care about on the left as their own nothing is going to change.

Asking you to consider the problems of people not as fortunate as you isn't asking you project onto anyone else, its asking you to let them project onto you.
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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Tue May 09, 2017 10:46 pm

What perspective am I supposed to propose? I can empathize, and I try to as often as possible, but I am never going to be them. I can't feel what anyone else felt about something. It will always be my perspective, and if you read that perspective as "entitled white guy who doesn't get it" then I don't know what to tell you. There are many things in this world that are real problems and really hurt, for the sake of consistency here, young women, but I don't think this is one of them, and I am also of the opinion that crying wolf at the harmless things desensitizes people to the real danger (oh it's just 4chan ignore it), so when I sense outrage, minor as it may be, over something like this I tend to rebel.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 11:21 pm

Sometimes rebelling against outrage looks an awful lot like telling a woman or minority what they should and shouldn't be offended by.
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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Tue May 09, 2017 11:32 pm

Well that's a risk I'm willing to take, unfortunate as it may sometimes be. Sometimes I'm not offended by the same shit, and I say so and try to explain why. If someone said to me "This offends me" it's not like I would tell them it doesn't, though in all honesty I might inquire as to why it does if it seems like an overreaction, but I'm not going to be governed by potential offense taken by other people. Firstly because I can't do anything about that. What offends you offends you, I can't stop that. Secondly because you don't have the right to go through life without being offended. All sorts of shit offends me mightily, and in my experience women and minorities are no less capable of withstanding offenses than I am. Probably more capable, since they're subjected to so many more than I am likely to be.

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Joxam
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Joxam » Tue May 09, 2017 11:54 pm

For someone so willing to take the risk of being an asshole you seem to have a huge problem with being called an asshole.
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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Wed May 10, 2017 12:00 am

I'm fine being called an asshole. I'm not fine with any implication that I don't take to heart the implications of what's really going on. I get that there are problems, and I am willing to be an asshole when discussing them because nothing is served if we all just sit around and circle jerk each other about how everything is problematic and really they should have thought of this with more concern or whatever the fuck. If coming in to a conversation and saying "hey everyone, choose your battles or no one will take you seriously" makes me an asshole, then I am happy to be that asshole.

I like to argue (not bicker, argue, like with ideas), and that will inevitably make an asshole out of everyone to someone.

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TA
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby TA » Wed May 10, 2017 12:13 am

Yes, it's very easy as the white dude to come in and tell people to ignore all the little shit that keeps piling up, because there's other stuff they should worry about more. That they're being oversensitive and they have no reason to expect anything to not be purposefully offensive, especially you when telling them this.

People can, in fact, think more than one thing is bad at once.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

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Bal
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Bal » Wed May 10, 2017 12:29 am

I think it would be easy for anyone to do that. Just like it would be easy to jump in, play the "of course YOU would say that" line and continue on to the moral high ground from the back of your white horse where you can appropriately sneer at the ivory tower you imagine I have.

This is a fun game, who wants to be reduced to a meaningless label next?

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Mongrel
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby Mongrel » Wed May 10, 2017 1:16 am

I am growing more convinced that the narrative that various human ethnic or cultural subgroups are functionally unable to empathize or understand one another is poisonous, no matter if it's actually true or not.
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beatbandito
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Re: Samurai Back

Postby beatbandito » Wed May 10, 2017 9:56 am

Gods guys, this thread has so many played out tropes going on.
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