SNES Favorite 75

[Friday]

33. Final Fantasy 5



This entry in my list is probably the strongest example of how this is a "favorite" list and not a "best" list.

That's a complicated distinction, and not only because even if I was doing a "best" list, my own bias would still creep in. Basically, the reason why I am always sure to call my lists of bullshit "Favorite" that I constantly create and think about and obsess about writing more of but then think no, I don't really know what I want to say about the next entry, so I just give up and go back to shitposting (before inevitably just sitting down and basically doing stream of thought writing, then some editing, then posting, then more editing and spellchecking, then leaving it for a day, then coming back and finding more spelling errors and fixing them, and still knowing that I didn't find all of them and this bothering me) is that by calling them "Favorite" it basically gives me carte blanche to order this shit any way I like.

And if someone disagrees with me putting Final Fantasy 6 above Final Fantasy 5? Cool, but this is my list. You can make your own list.

Here's the thing though. Even though I name all my lists "Favorite" there's still this thing that rolls around in the back of my head. And that thing is "objective quality."

Okay, we're getting off track here. I promise you we will get to actually talking about Final Fantasy 5 (which is a masterpiece) eventually.

So, what is art?

"Art is anything that makes you feel an emotion"

NO IT ISN'T SHUTUP YOU'RE DUMB AND I HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT YOU

*cacophony of endless voices arguing about what is and isn't art for all time, forever, across all sentient/sapient species throughout the universe*

So, let's move on. I don't know what art fucking is, and I'm not interested in drawing an arbitrary line. Like most human concepts, it's not something that can be precisely defined. Art isn't math, though math can be art. Lol.

What I do know is this: Art is subjective.

WOW, FRIDAY. WHAT AN OBSERVATION.

I know. Sit down, wait for the vertigo to pass. As the first person in the world to observe that art is subjective and means different things to different people (including the author, which is why the concept of Death of the Author exists) you must be so incredibly blown away right now. I know, I know, I'm a genius.

But I have another, more controversial observation than "subjective value exists".

Ready?

Objective value exists.

You know how I know objective value exists?

Because no one, ever, throughout the entirety of human existence, has argued or will ever argue that the Soffitto della Cappella Sistina is worse than their own child's macaroni art that they put up on their fridge.

(oooooo Friday you went on wikipedia to look up the italian, you pretentious dumb fuck)

Now, the macaroni art probably has more personal (subjective) value to that parent than the work by Michelangelo does to them. Their child made it, it's special. It's a symbol of the pure love their offspring has for their mom or whatever. To that mom, the macaroni art rates higher than that ceiling of that chapel. And that's fine, nobody is mad about that.

But also, nobody actually thinks the macaroni art can stand up to anything Michelangelo ever did. (Well, maybe. But it'd have to be some REALLY impressive macaroni art.) If every single person did the impossible task of ranking every single piece of art ever made by a human, including every single macaroni art and random scribble, I guarantee you that nobody would put the macaroni above The Sistine Chapel. Except maybe that mom.

So, objective value exists. This isn't a fucking mind breaking statement of fact, or anything, but I do think that sometimes people go a little bit too far down the "all art is subjective" rabbit hole. Sure, all art is subjective, but.

So what the fuck does all this have to do with Final Fantasy 5?

Here's the thing. FF5 didn't make my top 100 videogames list. It's here, instead, on the cusp of making it. And I'm okay with that, after all it's my list. But.

I think FF5, FF4, and FF6 are all about equally good.

I just like 4 and 6 more.

My stance on these three masterpieces has always been the following:

You like story and characters? 6 is probably your jam. Want super interesting and awesome combat mechanics and a robust job system? 5 is gonna be your game. Want something that blends both but does neither quite as well? 4 is for you.

(Want the best of both worlds and the most nuanced antagonist character ever put into a video game in one game?)

The point is, I think FF5 is just as good a game as 4 or 6, even though I personally rank it lower. And you know what? That's actually pretty odd for me to do. I'm usually all about mechanics. I love a good story, don't get me wrong, but gameplay mechanics are my jam. I have no real explanation for why in this particular case I seem to have ranked against my own usual preferences.

Maybe it's how FF5 feels so silly. It almost goes out of its way to remind you that this is a game, not a world. Everything feels so artificial, so video gamey. The combat and the job system are universally loved and are great, but the design of everything else just feels so constructed. I don't get the impression I'm exploring a fantasy world when I play FF5. It's the reason I prefer SotN over the later Igavanias. Even though SotN has problems those later games do not have, it still brings a sense of immersion, of world, that the later handhelds do not.

I love Final Fantasy 6. It's my favorite (mainline/numbered) Final Fantasy. It edges out FF4 just barely because Opera Scene. But you know what? If you said your favorite mainline Final Fantasy was 5? I'd respect that. That's a solid pick. That's a cultured pick. That's the pick of a person who knows what they want, and what they want is a fun job system to muck around in.

Do I recommend this game:
Yes. It's a masterpiece. Whatever problems it has with the story and the characters are more than made up for.

[Upthorn]

My take on art is "any meaningful emotional communication."
Though, of course that just pushes the question to "what is meaning, anyway?"

But I can break it down a little further into three criteria I have identified:
Art must have

• an intended emotional message
• and a received emotional message
• both of which have applications beyond the piece itself.

Entertainment, then, is anything with the superficial form of art, but lacking one or more of the above criteria.
The line between "art" and "entertainment" of course, remains at least partially subjective, as it is possible for one person to receive a message that another person does not. (This is also not to say that entertainment is without value, either, just that it has a different form of value than art.)

From which I say that:

• FF6 is superior as an artistic story
• FF5 is superior as an entertaining game
• and FF4's impression on me was wholly erased by playing 4-6 in rapid succession.

[Friday]

From which I say that:
FF6 is superior as an artistic story
FF5 is superior as an entertaining game

I'd agree with this. Playing through FF6 the first time, my primary drive to keep playing was to see what happened next in the story, or what the characters would do next. Playing through 5, I didn't give the slightest shit about the plot, the story, or the characters. They felt empty in almost the same way that early western dungeon crawler RPGs felt empty to me. You know, those old games where you roll up a party of adventurers and they are just blank slates. Piles of stats to explore the dungeon with. FF1 did that too.

5 is a little better in that it does have characters and plot more than "get to the final floor of the dungeon and kill the final boss" but 5's plot and characters almost feel like an afterthought. Especially when compared to 6.

Of course, conversely, I was having fun with the combat system and the job system while playing 5. When I was playing 6 I was just spamming autocrossbow or drill. Unlocking new jobs and figuring out how to combine their skills in new and powerful ways was the drive pushing me forward while playing 5. Meanwhile, 6 just goes "eh" when it comes to combat.

[Thad]

I'd agree with this. Playing through FF6 the first time, my primary drive to keep playing was to see what happened next in the story, or what the characters would do next. Playing through 5, I didn't give the slightest shit about the plot, the story, or the characters. They felt empty in almost the same way that early western dungeon crawler RPGs felt empty to me. You know, those old games where you roll up a party of adventurers and they are just blank slates. Piles of stats to explore the dungeon with. FF1 did that too.

Yeah, it's not exactly an original observation but 1, 3, and 5 are a sort of iterative trilogy. The series went in a different direction after that, though Bravely Default eventually showed up as a continuation of that original formula.

[Mongrel]

The ultimate Indo-European roots of the word 'art' as we know it is cognate with words which mean "truth", and, interestingly enough, are also cognate with a further back root which essentially means "Fit stuff together properly."

The same words also developed into tool- and craft-related words, including eventually "arms", as in weapons. Among many other things.

[Friday]

Well, let's take a break from JRPG DELUGE for a moment for the next entry.

(We'll get right back to it afterward, after all, the SNES is famous for its RPGs.)

32. Donkey Kong Country 2

Alright, here we fucking go:















Keep in mind this is just a sampling of the incredible musical tracks that make up this game. As has been said many times before by others, David Wise is a genius.

If DKC1 was an incredible platformer with amazing graphics, music, sound design and funfactor, then DKC2 is...

Well, think Zelda 1 to Zelda 3. It's the sequel that takes everything the original did, and does it better.

Oh no! Donkey Kong has been kidnapped! Now Diddy and Dixie must team up to defeat the crocs once again, this time on their home turf. Cartwheel and hairspin your way across a pirate ship, a swamp, a croco-amusement park (complete with minecart rides) and a ... hive of bees?

Along the way, you'll run into your old animal friends as well as some new ones. The secrets are more deviously hidden, the challenge is ramped up to 11, and there's even a super-post-game zone that only unlocks by finding a ton of secret coins.

The newcomer, Dixie, is a far better parter to have than DK himself. Diddy was fast and could attack/carwheel quickly, while all DK brought to the table was some boring "strength" that hardly mattered in actual gameplay. By contrast, Dixie is slower like DK was but brings a lot of interesting perks, like spinning her hair in mid-air to copter feather fall. Additionally, the Kongs can grab each other and hurl to gain access to out of the way platforms and secrets. It's a toss up which character is more useful.

This is, for my money, the best game Rare ever made. Their dev skills are at their peak here. They solved the problem of "enemy appears onscreen and instantly hits you before you can react" by giving a lot of enemies "wake up" animations. It's a small thing, but it works. Overall though the game is harder. But it feels less cheap compared to DKC1. Well, most of the time.

The infamously difficult stickerbrush levels where you play as the parrot come to mind. Gruelling endurance tests that put your feather touch "press A to flap wings and gain a slight amount of height" flying controls to the uttermost test. It's almost comical that one of the most calming and serene tracks plays over the whole thing. I suspect they knew the levels would enrage players so they told David Wise to bring the audio xanax. Well, I'm glad they did because the track is one of my favorites in all of gaming.

DKC2 does not have the anti-capitalist message that the first game did, which is the only reason I ranked DKC so highly, only one tier behind. But it exceeds the original in basically every other way imaginable.

Do I recommend this game:
Yes. It's on the higher difficulty side, but it's a stunning masterpiece of classic platformer (and explorer platformer) design. The stage gimmicks are fun for the most part and the bosses are leagues beyond the original in design.

[Friday]

31. Dragon Quest 5



Bianca.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, we can talk about the game.

DQ5 is a watershed moment in gaming for a lot of different reasons. It's sort of weird to me that DQ has the rep of "samey same samey" because actually each game up to this point has been really different and experimental, outside of basic combat mechanics. 6 is actually the odd one out in that it's probably the least experimental.

What did 5 do that was notable? Well, for one, you don't even play as the Hero. Hell, you even start off as a little kid. The game is divided into three basic chapters: Kid PC, Adult PC, and Adult Post-Marriage/Kids PC. There's a section where you get petrified and eventually your kids (now grown up) find you and reverse the curse so you can help your son and daughter defeat the big bad.

The storytelling is absolutely brutal. Watching your dad die in front of you because you were taken hostage is one of the most heart wrenching things in any game I've ever seen. And that's just the beginning. DQ7 also has some pretty brutal moments (none more brutal than when it took away my ONLY HEALER), but 5 will always stick with me.

SMT was the first game to do the whole "monsters can join your party" thing, but DQ5 really made it popular. I wouldn't be surprised if 5 was directly responsible for the existence of Pokemon. Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Pokemon was inevitable, Mr. Anderson. Perhaps Pokemon exists in all timelines. Perhaps there is no universe without cute lightning rats.

As far as everything else goes, it's solid DQ stuff. Fight monsters, get exp and money, buy upgrades at shops. I think that's the appeal of the DQ series after all: while the series experiments with storytelling and structure, the core combat loop always remains the same. And yeah, that's gonna turn some people off. The debate about the validity of "grinding" in RPGs will probably continue long after all of us are dead in the ground.

What else is there to say about DQ5? It's probably my favorite DQ game after, uh, 11, 8, and 3. It's a lovely game full of interesting story beats and good old fashioned JRPG challenge. It lacks some of the later refinements of DQ games that came after it but also doesn't have a lot of the early jank of the DQ games that came before it. It's the first DQ made for the 16 bit era, and boy did they deliver. DQ's next two entries will falter a bit (6 is generally underappreciated, and 7 is very hit and miss with people) but making 5 games in a row that were this good and this revolutionary is quite an accomplishment.

Do I recommend this game:
Absolutely. I would actually even recommend it over 3, though I like 3 more. I think 5 holds up the best for a modern audience of all the 2D DQ games, or until 8. It's a wonderful game that I had to cut from my top 100 all time games by just a hair.

[Thad]

Any preference between SFC and DS? I've only played the DS version.

[Friday]

30. Seiken Densetsu 3



You know, in retrospect, I don't know why I picked Secret of Mana over Seiken Densetsu 3. Nostalgia, maybe? I played with my brother as a kid, after all, and didn't play Seiken Densetsu 3 until the age of emulation and roms and translation patches, and I played it by myself.

So, let me say this: Secret of Mana may be on my top 100 games list, but SD3 is a better game. It's almost clinical how much better it is. Let me explain:

1. Secret of Mana had wonky, unbalanced combat. SD3 improves and fixes the combat so that it feels so much better. The janky hit detection is greatly improved, if not perfect, and "just spam all your magic" is no longer the best way to fight bosses.
2. The challenge level is increased. Bosses will kick your ass if you are unprepared.
3. The graphics and music are on-par, if not better.
4. The story is more interesting and personal.
5. Speaking of, character selection.

SoM had a set main character and his girl and sprite companions. SD3 lets you pick not only your main character, but also your remaining two characters. And this has serious story and progression consequences. So let's go over the cast:

-Duran is the straightforward fight with a sword type. He hits hard and has great defense.
-Angela is the frail, prissy princess magic type. She ends up being a late game powerhouse and one of the strongest characters in the game.
-Kevin is a half beast boy who wants to John Wick avenge his canine companion. He attacks twice with his claws and turns into a werewolf at night. An absolute physical damage offensive powerhouse, and my pick for the overall best character in the game, since Angela doesn't get OP till the end.
-Charlotte is a half-elf who is vaguely sprite shaped. She is the healer of the game, but you don't need her on your team to suceed.
-Hawkeye is the other dual attacker. He's a thief and his emphasis is on hit and run tactics because his defense is low.
-Riesz is an amazon princess who uses a spear. Similar to Duran, but with a greater emphasis on tech than raw power.

Once you lock in a party selection at the start of the game, that's it. You can't swap characters in and out of your team later. But we're not done, because as the game progresses, you will have the opportunity to class change each character, based on a Light/Dark system. Twice! That means that each character has a Dark/Dark class, a Light/Light class, a Light/Dark class, and a Dark/Light class.

So, uh, yeah. The game has some replay value. I don't know how many possible team configurations there are total once you factor in all the possible classes, but like, more than you could possibly ever experience yourself.

There's a new day/night system, a new day-of-the-week system, and more. SD3 is truly the bigger badder big brother to SoM. And you can still play through it co-op with a friend! A true powerhouse of a game.

EDIT: also, a lot of my evaluations of the characters are straight up wrong depending on how you class them out. I've never done it myself, but I hear there's a class for Duran that is absolutely bonkers for dps, for example.

Do I recommend this game:
Yes, for sure. However, it might be better to play the remake/remaster, Trials of Mana. I've heard it's great, but someone with experience will have to chime in here. As for me, I'll say that if you liked SoM, you owe it to yourself to try SD3.

[Friday]

Any preference between SFC and DS? I've only played the DS version.

Well, I've only played the SFC/SNES version, but I hear the DS version is pretty great! It adds Party Chat, which is always fun. Probably you can't go wrong with either, but in general the remakes tend to be more palatable for modern sensibilities.

[sei]

30. Seiken Densetsu 3

Like SoM, SD3's a really solid multiplayer experience and IMO one of the main beneficiaries of SNES emulator netcode.

SD3's one of the few SNES games I've replayed a few times over the years. That puts it on a very short list with Super Metroid, Link to the Past, and Secret of Mana. (I partially revisited Chrono Trigger on the DS, so not sure whether to count it.)

I don't know where your top 25 is, but it must be all fucking absolute bangers for this game to be all the way down at 30. (I have SD3 "up there" with SoM, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, LttP, FF4-6, Mega Man X, Street Fighter 2's permutations, and SMRPG. Except I think that as being both a co-op game and an action one, it's substantially more replayable than the straight RPGs.)

The PC remake, Trials of Mana, is fun but the engine and tweaks also feel different enough from SD3 that it doesn't obviate the SNES title.


EDIT: The top 25 were literally in the second post of this thread. I am illiterate, as usual.

[Friday]

1. A Link to the Past
2. Earthbound
3. Final Fantasy 6
4. Final Fantasy 4
5. Super Metroid
6. Shadowrun
7. Yoshi's Island
8. Super Mario RPG
9. Chrono Trigger
10. Lufia 2
11. Mega Man X
12. Super Mario World
13. Super Punch Out!!
14. Another World/Out of this World
15. Secret of Mana
16. Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen
17. Terranigma
18. Demon's Crest
19. 7th Saga
20. Metal Warriors
21. Final Fight Guy
22. Contra III
23. ActRaiser
24. Super Castlevania IV
25. Ultima VI: The False Prophet
26. Wild Guns
27. Blackthorne
28. Zombies Ate My Neighbors

These are from my top 100 all time games, scattered throughout. I think LttP was rated 5.

I'm prepared to defend most of these games as equal to or better quality as Seiken Densetsu 3. The top ten for sure. Some easy ones that I consider worse games than SD3 would be Secret of Mana (which I just discussed), Ogre Battle, 7th Saga (sigh), Final Fight, Ultima 6, Blackthorne, and maybe Zombies. I dunno, Zombies is weird. It's not "good" in the traditional sense that most people mean, but it's so oddball weird-awesome that I feel I can put it up next to SD3.

The rest of the games on that list of 28, are, of course, debatable. But I think they're all top-tier quality games for what they set out to do. Very few games are as complex as SD3 and have as much multi-player and replayability, I'll give you that for sure.

[Friday]

I mean, is SD3 a better game than Mega Man X? I think that's really asking the wrong question. I think Ebert was right in how he tried to rate movies; you're not objectively scoring every movie against every other movie on some sort of final point system. He got a lot of shit for occasionally rating action movies above critically acclaimed oscar-bait films, but I mean, sometimes you want to just see Arnold shoot a T-1000.

This is why I never really claim to be rating "best" anything. Having favorites is fine, and while I can appreciate SD3, I just like those 28 games slightly more for whatever logical or illogical reasons. But these last nine games in this thread (and the final one coming up) were all very close to making my top 100, back when I compiled the list. I think I started with over 400 games? I had to cut a lot of really good shit. And games with a primarily multi-player focus weren't even on there. (WoW, Guild Wars, Perfect Dark, TF2, etc.)

[sei]

I mean, is SD3 a better game than Mega Man X? I think that's really asking the wrong question.

I categorize the games into nebulous quality tiers. Rankings are understandably subjective to a degree, but we can recognize things like mechanics jank, interface jank, pacing issues, etc. as detractors. Genre preferences will influence rankings. I think having SoM above SD3 kind of reveals it as a personal list, which is fine too.

MMX and SD3 are both amazing. MMX is probably my favorite non-Metroidvania side scroller on the SNES. (Actraiser had the really cool, novel city-building thing but the platforming was less fluid and less satisfying, IIRC.) Demon's Crest was also very good, and the different forms give that kind of "different weapon" variety the Mega Man series gave over time, in some ways "but better"-ish, but also I remember the game feeling slower / less fluid, so I'd still rank MMX higher even though DC was more complex/evolved(?). And I could see and understand someone ranking DKC2 higher than either of them.

I am biased towards less story-centric games these days; 2024 sei has different priorities than 1997 sei. WoW, FF 13+, and Genshin Impact's dialog disposed me against wordy games. I still play some RPGs despite them, but the bar is higher these days than when I was a kid.

I also am looking at it through the lens of which kinds of games/experiences I'd like to share with others and what the logistics and demands of same might be, which pushes "shut up and go" games way higher up the list over time.

Also, damn, I forgot about Terranigma. That game was good.

I searched the forums and didn't see you mention a couple games which it's possible you might like more than some of the other entries I've seen earlier in your top 75 list. They didn't have official translations out west. Romancing SaGa3 and Bahamut Lagoon were decent RPGs. Not sure whether you have the time or interest in revisiting stuff that old, but RS3 has a lobster than punches people.

[Friday]

If it means anything to you, if I was to make a top ten SNES list that I considered "best", SD3 would be on it.

Actually, you know what? Fuck it.

1. A Link to the Past
2. Earthbound
3. Final Fantasy 6
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Super Metroid
6. Seiken Densetsu 3
7. Yoshi's Island
8. Mega Man X
9. Final Fantasy 4
10. Terranigma

For my money, those are the ten best SNES games. Objectively, by which I mean of course I cannot remove bias entirely. I removed Shadowrun because as much as I like it, it's deeply flawed, and Lufia 2 has glitches and sloppy coding all over. I also took Mario RPG off, because while I love that game to death, it's mostly charm without much substance. Replacing them are SD3, MMX, and Terranigma. DKC2 could replace Terranigma or even FF4, it is very very close. I feel my only "out there" pick is Yoshi's Island, which while highly regarded, isn't as highly regarded as I think it should be. I'm sure there are other games and other arguments for them, that even I on another day in the future might make. But I feel that's a defensible list of SNES games. Other people might put CV4 on there, or Contra 3, or DQ5, or Super Mario World. Or anything.

[nosimpleway]

31. Dragon Quest 5

The entire plot of DQ5 is just the universe punching the main character in the beanbag, over and over, until you get your spouse back a handful of plot-points before the final boss. It's just one constant, life-altering misfortune after another.

When you level up, your main character's stats go up like usual... except for Luck. He'll have single-digit Luck for nearly the entire game. Not just lowest of any other character in the game, but probably the lowest of any character in the entire series.

And god dammit that's relatable fucking content right there isn't it

[sei]

If it means anything to you, if I was to make a top ten SNES list that I considered "best", SD3 would be on it.

Actually, you know what? Fuck it.

1. A Link to the Past
2. Earthbound
3. Final Fantasy 6
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Super Metroid
6. Seiken Densetsu 3
7. Yoshi's Island
8. Mega Man X
9. Final Fantasy 4
10. Terranigma

For my money, those are the ten best SNES games. Objectively, by which I mean of course I cannot remove bias entirely. I removed Shadowrun because as much as I like it, it's deeply flawed, and Lufia 2 has glitches and sloppy coding all over. I also took Mario RPG off, because while I love that game to death, it's mostly charm without much substance. Replacing them are SD3, MMX, and Terranigma. DKC2 could replace Terranigma or even FF4, it is very very close. I feel my only "out there" pick is Yoshi's Island, which while highly regarded, isn't as highly regarded as I think it should be. I'm sure there are other games and other arguments for them, that even I on another day in the future might make. But I feel that's a defensible list of SNES games. Other people might put CV4 on there, or Contra 3, or DQ5, or Super Mario World. Or anything.

Yeah, it's solid. I think a bunch of people would try to put Mario Kart up there.

I think SMRPG, Earthbound, and Yoshi's Island have vibes as a big component of them, and that's honestly fine given for how well they did what they did. I wouldn't punt Yoshi's Island on those grounds.

[sei]

Also norn would want Tetris Attack on there. Probably.

[Thad]

it might be better to play the remake/remaster, Trials of Mana. I've heard it's great, but someone with experience will have to chime in here.

I haven't played the SFC version so I can't compare to that, but I can compare it to SoM and I'd say it's got SoM vibes without the SoM jank. I love the graphical style, I love the music, and even though it loses the multiplayer I'd say it's the most enjoyable action RPG I've played in years.

(NOTE: When I say that something is the best [whatever] I've played in years, keep in mind that games I have recently played include Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, and Sonic Adventure. The most recent releases I am currently playing are Llamasoft: The Jeff Minter Story, a compilation of games dating back to the 1980s, and Yakuza Kiwami 2, a 2017 remake of a 2006 game.)

Anyway, I thought it was great. Like many SE games, it goes on sale pretty much all the time -- such as at Humble right now --, so grab it on sale.

[Büge]

Secret of Mana may be on my top 100 games list, but SD3 is a better game.

[Lyrai has entered the chat]