Mega Man

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Thad
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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:21 pm

You know what I'd really like to see? Mods. MN9 is frustratingly close to being a good game. If you eliminated the lives system, added more waypoints, tweaked the placement of some enemies and hazards, prevented bosses from recovering their health, and made it so Beck doesn't take damage if he dashes into something that's vulnerable (at least bosses, maybe regular enemies too), and made all the banter optional, that would really fix most of the pain points right there.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Sharkey » Tue Jul 05, 2016 2:34 pm

Wait, it still uses lives? I understand this is supposed to be a retro-ish thing, but didn't we chuck that whole concept for being pointlessly shitty, what... decades ago now?

Yeah, yeah. I know you could probably do something useful or at least cheeky with that mechanic. There are probably examples. This doesn't sound like one of them.
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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:21 am

So I'm back to playing Mega Man Legacy Collection instead.

I'm up to 4. And I always knew I didn't like it as much as 2 or 3 but it's interesting to replay it and understand why in a more concrete way. It's not just the power shot (which I've decided not to use on this playthrough, except to clear out shit on Dust Man's level because it's interminable otherwise). The stage design is just boring as fuck. There are a couple of interesting ideas in there -- some stages have branching paths, though the branches all just dead-end -- but mostly it just feels rote.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Spram » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:16 am

Thad wrote:So I'm back to playing Mega Man Legacy Collection instead.

I'm up to 4. And I always knew I didn't like it as much as 2 or 3 but it's interesting to replay it and understand why in a more concrete way. It's not just the power shot (which I've decided not to use on this playthrough, except to clear out shit on Dust Man's level because it's interminable otherwise). The stage design is just boring as fuck. There are a couple of interesting ideas in there -- some stages have branching paths, though the branches all just dead-end -- but mostly it just feels rote.


I actually really like Ring Man's level. I like the disappearing platforms and it has two mini bosses, which might be too much but I haven't played the game recently so I shouldn't have an opinion on this.

I can say that any level from Megaman 4 is better than Commando Man and Blade Man from 10.

Something else I can say about the Megaman level design is that 2 was the most diverse. In 1 the levels felt pretty similar but I think it's because of hardware limitations and after 3 most levels start feeling the same, as if they hit a formula that worked and stuck to it (with some good gimmicks in some of them like Gravity Man), this also applied to the graphics. In Megaman 2 the levels all felt pretty unique even if the gimmicks had nothing to do with their robot master (like Flash Man is slippery and Crash Man has platforms on rails).

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:45 am

Ring Man is one of the better ones. The game's got some pretty cool giant animal minibosses.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby IGNORE ME » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:34 am

Spram wrote:Something else I can say about the Megaman level design is that 2 was the most diverse. In 1 the levels felt pretty similar but I think it's because of hardware limitations and after 3 most levels start feeling the same


That Mega Man 1 existed on a fucking UNROM is just sheer unbelievable programming wizardry, once you understand what that implies. Things you take for granted, like being able to move freely left and right or even more unbelievably, up and down ladders are such goddam black magic tricks on that hardware that looking into the cartridge just for that much ought to melt your face off, Raiders of the Lost Ark style.

So here again is Mega Man's ending sequence.



Jesus H. Motherfucking Christ.

So in that light, it's entirely understandable why Capcom never seemed to upgrade or in any way change the Mega Man engine throughout the entirety of its NES run - they were probably terrified by the idea of trying to take it apart.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby zaratustra » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:45 am

Huh, Duck Tales is also UNROM. And, now that I think about it, is probably 70% Megaman code.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Sharkey » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:40 pm

Same thing with Little Mermaid.
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Re: Mega Man

Postby Caithness » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:51 pm

I actually really like 4, probably because it was my first Megaman game. More than 2 even! (Which I never played until after 9.)

But my favorite is 3.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:42 am

The music in 4 is pretty solid too. Despite the downright boneheaded move of giving up an entire audio channel to the charge sound effect.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Mothra » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:38 pm

You guys hear about this?



Looks to be the work of six or seven guys under the banner JKB Games (Facebook link). It's a flash-based fan sequel, set after MMX5.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Blossom » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:53 pm

Scrolls left.

Worse than Mighty No. 9.
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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:34 pm

You know, for the game that basically made special weapons redundant, Mega Man 4's weapons are actually pretty good. They don't have the originality or variety of the previous games', but they also don't have any mostly-useless ones like Power Arm, Time Stopper, Atomic Fire, Top Spin, or Spark Shock.

There's a lot of thought put into these. Rain Flush can clear the screen but the delay between firing it and seeing the effect limit its application just enough. And its power consumption is just right; high enough that you can't use it all the time but low enough that it comes in handy in the sections where you need it (like the auto-scrolling level).

The items, on the other hand, *are* mostly useless. Rush Marine is the same as it was in 3 but the game's got even fewer places to use it; Rush Jet has been modified so that it automatically moves forward at a constant speed, which renders it pretty much only useful for the one section of the game where you have to use it. The wire, which only appears in this game...well, I wound up using it more times on this playthrough than I remember ever using it before, but I can still count the number of times I used it on one hand.

Balloon's pretty good, though. It's mostly just Item-1 from Mega Man 2, but the tweaks (wider, "softer" physics) are good ones.

Dr. Wily's second form only being vulnerable to a fucking undocumented feature (detonating the Drill Bomb before impact) is one of the biggest dick moves the series has ever pulled, though (not on the level of the wall boss in MM2 but up there); I assume that's the reason later games' "You got [weapon]" screens come with a visual demonstration of how the weapon works. And of course if you don't know what he's vulnerable against going in, there are pretty good odds you'll use up the Drill Bomb before you get to him, and then the only way to beat him is to suicide out, replay the level, and fight all 8 fucking teleporter bosses again. (The one nice bit of reprieve is that the boss who *is* vulnerable to the Drill Bomb, Toad Man, is the one who's easiest to beat with your regular weapon.)

I assume shit like that is why subsequent games started introducing Weapon Tanks and the like, which is nice and all but misses the point that sub-subsequent games finally got, which is that the whole system was bullshit and your weapons should just refill when you die, damn it.

(Again in "Mega Man 2's wall boss is just the worst": the first 3 Wily stages are really friendly about giving you places where you can grind for weapon energy, and then Wily 4 pretty much fucks you. You've got a few rooms of the tube guys who move agonizingly slowly and take forever to farm, and then you've got a gauntlet of Joes, with and without mechs, that are like the worst possible enemies for farming. Given how the previous levels dole out opportunities to recover energy, Wily 4's hostility on same is deliberate, which, coupled with a boss that's extremely difficult to beat without dying and refilling your energy, is just sadism.)

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Spram » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:01 am

I got Megaman Legacy Collection 1 (all 6 of the NES games) on the Switch and wanted to write something about the music.

Megaman 1:
Music by Manami Matsumae
Quality: Good
The music for Cutman's level is iconic, maybe because it's good or maybe because it was the first one I heard. Elecman's music is good but sounds too much like "Faithfully" by Journey, something I noticed immediately even as a child. The rest of the music is not as good but it's not bad.

Megaman 2:
Music by Takashi Tateishi
Quality: Best
This is my favorite Megaman soundtrack. Wily's first stage is many people's favorite with a good reason. Bubbleman's stage is probably my favorite but I would say they're all good. The second Wily Castle theme sounds out of place but serves to set the mood.

Megaman 3:
Music by Yasuaki Fujita and someone else
Quality: Very good
The music is still good here. Standouts include Wily Stage 3, Topman and (my favorite) Magnetman.

Megaman 4:
Music by Minae Fujii
Quality: Worst
I don't know why but I don't like or remember any of the music in this game. I would say Dustman's theme starts out strong but them ends up sounding like the rest of the game's music, just meh.

Megaman 5:
Music by Mari Yamaguchi
Quality: Mixed
Some good, some bad. Chargeman's and Napalman's themes are pretty good but some others (like Diveman's) sound sad even. Megaman music is supposed to be happy. Maybe she was saving her really good music for other games she worked on like UN Squadron, Super Ghouls and Ghosts and that Mickey Mouse SNES game.

Megaman 6:
Music by: Yuko Takehara
Quality: Mixed
Just like Megaman 5, some of the stuff here sounds sad or too low tempo but it also has Flameman's theme which is one of the best in the series.

Megaman 7 & 8:
Who cares.

Megaman 9:
Music by: Ippo Yamada, Ryo Kawakami, Yu Shimoda, and Hiroki Isogai.
Quality: Very good
Four people worked on the music here and it's very good. Yu Shimoda made Concreteman, Galaxyman and We're the Robots (a Wily Stage) which are all good. Ippo made Tornadoman's theme which is a work of art and one of the best in the series. Hiroki Isogai worked on Splashwoman, Hornetman and Jewelman, which are all good. Ryo Kawakami made the rest.

Megaman 10:
Music by: Everyone
Quality: Poor
Each track was made by different people, most of them worked on past Megaman games. I only like 2 of them: Sheepman's and Solarman. Sheepman was done by Mari Yamaguchi and Solarman was done by Megaman 2's Takashi Tateishi. Commandoman and Blademan stages are some of the least fun in the entire series not just in graphics and gameplay but in music too. Chillman's music is well done but doesn't fit in with Megaman.

As we can see Megaman music (and games) started out strong but crappyfied after 3. I assume it might be because Capcom saved their good musicians for SNES games. It makes sense. Another theory of the declining quality is that adding the charging shot sound effect took a sound channel and the music is simpler because of it.. I don't know because I don't know much about music. Maybe the reason the music is worse on the later games (4 to 6) is because the games themselves were less fun and it changes how we experience the music? Maybe.

So what makes a good Megaman song? One thing I noticed from my favorite soundtrack (Megaman 2) is that the music is much funkier. Later games have more melodic and even slower music which probably sounded better in the composers' heads than with the NES' bleeps. But I don't know.

Here is my top 10 (ignoring menus, boss, endings and title screens):
10. Quickman? Airman? Galaxyman? We are the Robots?
9. Topman
8. Flameman
7. Sheepman
6. Dr Wily Stage 3 (Megaman 3)
5. Cutman
4. Magnetman
3. Bubbleman
2. Dr Wily 1 (Megaman 2)
1. Tornadoman

Nerds, what are your favorite?

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:30 pm

Thad wrote:Steam and Nintendo both have sales on. Mostly the Steam sale has better deals (eg Bravely Default 2 is $30 on Steam and $42 on the Nintendo shop), though I note they've both got the Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection for $15. I've been thinking of picking that up since I've only ever played two of the games (the first Zero and the first ZX). You can turn off that smeary graphical filter, right?

I went ahead and snagged the Switch version and my main takeaway so far is oof, that's right, Mega Man X/Zero/ZX games cramp the fuck out of my right hand if I play them with a modern controller. Maybe I'll see if I can get one of my 8bitdo SNES controllers to work with it.

I forget, do you eventually get auto-charge in this one? That mitigated the controller cramp in the later X games.

Off the bat it's disappointing how limited the controller configuration is. I'd like something like MM8's control scheme where A and B both jump and X and Y each wield a different weapon. And I guess I could set that up if I'd gotten the Steam version. (I know you can remap buttons on the Switch, but can you map the same button to two locations? I guess I should look into that.)

I'm trying to get the hang of dash on L but my muscle memory still expects it on A. I could remap it to A if I wanted to; that's within the range of limited control options the game provides. But everybody keeps telling me putting it on the shoulder is better so I'm trying to retrain my brain.

There are a few concessions to modernity here but in practice that just means you get as many chances as you want to start right before the fucking unskippable boss dialogue.

But yes the smeary graphics filter is optional. As is fractional scaling. I disabled the filter and set it to integer scaling and it looks pretty good.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:11 pm

Yeah, a lot more comfortable with an 8bitdo pad. Still hurts my thumb to hold down the Charge button; guess I should get better with the saber.

Forgot how shitty the localization was. Just fucking incoherent. Descriptions of the cyber-elves are utterly useless; I remember "I can help out in the damage zone" from playing it when it was new. (It eliminates all the instant-death spikes.) I don't know how this NES-caliber shit made it out the door in 2002.

I'd love to see a real remake, with a fresh localization and some significant changes like expanding the viewing area so you don't spend quite so much time walking into motherfuckers you couldn't see coming. But that (1) isn't the point of the Legacy Collection and (2) seems like probably a money-loser given that this is a tertiary Mega Man series from after the series' heyday that presumably has a smaller fanbase than the original or X series.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Sat Aug 20, 2022 11:55 pm

I feel like the Save-Assist feature goes a long way toward fixing the unnecessarily high difficulty of Mega Man Zero. Effectively it gives you infinite lives and a bunch of extra checkpoints.

I commented when MMZ was new that it wasn't as tough as people said it was if you were okay with doing a ton of grinding to level up cyber-elves. On the Anniversary Collection I didn't really do much grinding (maybe a little, like when I was really close to getting a Sub Tank or whatever), I mostly just powered through. And the thing about a Mega Man game is if you've got unlimited shots at a boss, eventually you're going to get the pattern down and be able to take him out even if you don't have the weapon he's weak against. (And MMZ is one of those games where most of the time, if you do have the boss's weakness, he's really easy.)

Really the only exceptions were at the end. The last boss and one of the bosses in the teleporters really kicked my ass and took a whole lot of banging my head against the wall before I could take them out.

But on the whole, replaying the game it was interesting how good a job IntiCreates did of recreating the feel of the original NES MM games. It's not quite the same, of course -- you've got two weapons, three elements, and a different move set -- but it definitely evokes that sense the original games had of being hard as fuck but mostly (not entirely) fair, and the kind of thing you can learn with enough skill and repetition. It's no wonder Capcom wound up putting them on Mega Man 9 and 10 and making those NES throwbacks.

I never played Zero 2-4 (I hear they're not as bastard-ass hard as the first one), but I'll probably give them a shot one of these days. I did play the first ZX, never finished it, largely because of its absolutely terrible map; I hear the second one's better.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Thad » Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:43 pm

I mean obviously we've come around to a consensus that the old design paradigm of

1. every stage has 3-5 tricky parts;
2. a tricky part typically takes between 3 and 20 repetitions to figure out how to get past (though it can be more -- a lot more);
3. you have 3 tries to get through all of them or you have to start over from the beginning

was bullshit. The save-assist mode on Anniversary collection basically eliminates #3; there are still some bastard-hard sections of Mega Man Zero, but you can repeat the section you're having trouble with as many times as you need to, and the checkpoints are well-placed so that if you die on one of those tricky parts, you almost always start over right at the beginning of it so that you don't have to waste time redoing an earlier section before you can get to the part you need to practice.

The one big exception is the last boss, which has two forms and god damn it would have made a huge difference if they'd put a checkpoint in-between them instead of making me re-fight the first form every time I died on the second.

(And Copy X's final form is bullshit. I didn't count the times I fought him but I bet it was around 50 before I beat him. And I feel like that was still only about 75% down to me repeating the fight until I got better, and 25% luck of the RNG. I don't remember having that much trouble with him when I played the original version of the game on the GBA, but I spent more time grinding for stuff like health and sub tanks on that version so that probably helped. But I bet what would have really helped would have been bringing a couple of those "I can save you from a pit" cyber-elves, because my deaths were probably 2:1 "knocked into a pit":"that fucking fire attack that takes almost half your health meter and may or may not be avoidable depending on the height of the moving columns when he telegraphs it".)

--

GBA graphics are fascinating. It's really the last system (that was a mainstream international success) where pixel art was a technical requirement, not a stylistic choice. And so you often get these really elaborate and detailed sprites -- and there's also a lot of stuff (cutscenes, character portraits, etc.) that's clearly hand-drawn art that's been dithered all to hell to work within the GBA's resolution and palette. There's some really beautiful sprite work in these games.

In general, the biggest problem with GBA graphics is the palette; to compensate for the GBA's terrible screen the graphics tend toward super-bright pastels. I'd really like to see rereleases come with the option of changing the palette to something a little darker, but I realize that would mean a lot of careful work, not a one-size-fits-all solution.

And the problem with the GBA graphics on Mega Man Zero in particular is that the sprites are too damn big. The game feels for all the world like it's something like Mega Man and Bass that was designed for a much bigger viewing area. The graphics look really good, but at the expense of playability; moving at regular walking speed means you run into enemies coming in from offscreen because you don't have time to react to them before they hit you. And there are multiple boss fights that involve guessing where an offscreen boss actually is, either firing blindly at something you can't actually see (and if you get close enough to see him you'll get shot in the face), or dodging blindly based on an assumption of where he's going to be.

MMZ is a fascinating game because, on the whole, it's really well-designed, but it's designed on principles that were considered unnecessarily punishing even when it was released 20 years ago, and there are a handful of really glaring design decisions that aren't merely oldschool but just plain bad and they're enough to bog it down.

But y'know, I still had enough fun that I played it through to the end, and I'll probably check out the sequels one of these days. It's a good game with some definite problems.

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Mongrel » Wed Oct 19, 2022 10:36 pm

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Re: Mega Man

Postby Caithness » Thu Oct 20, 2022 12:47 am

I have definitely seen that performed before, perhaps even at more than one convention

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