Shin Megami Threadsei

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7510
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Mongrel » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:09 pm

I think that's also a statement about gameplay though, you know?
Image

User avatar
Grath
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:34 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Grath » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:16 pm

Mothra wrote:... games that are essentially movies... Metal Gear Solid 4

Let's be fair here, Metal Gear Solid 4 is a movie with occasional interactive scenes.

User avatar
Brentai
Woah Dangsaurus
Posts: 1886
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Brentai » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:17 pm

That sort of thing has apparently been having a proven deleterious effect on the Japanese game industry, so it's kind of understandable. Western games sidestep the issue by making games that aren't hugely devalued by losing their plots, either by having much more player interaction or by coupling it with a robust enough multiplayer component.

There's a right way and a wrong way to handle that, though. NieR: Automata is a surprising case study on how to do a lot of things properly; one of those things was getting the word out about how much the director humbly beseeches players not to cheapen the experience for each other, because it's something you kind of have to experience for yourself. It's worked too, as far as I can tell; I've not seen ANYONE breach spoiler protocol on this plot despite it completely upending itself roughly every 5 hours or so.

Needless to say, Atlus's more brute-force method has not worked as well.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7510
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Mongrel » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:29 pm

I suppose the prevalence of visual novels in Japan also speaks to some extent about differing expectations for what constitutes a game.
Image

Niku
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Niku » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:50 pm

more importantly tag your p5 protag names i'm Risky Tanaka
Image

User avatar
TA
Posts: 1399
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby TA » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:12 pm

Brentai wrote:That sort of thing has apparently been having a proven deleterious effect on the Japanese game industry, so it's kind of understandable. Western games sidestep the issue by making games that aren't hugely devalued by losing their plots, either by having much more player interaction or by coupling it with a robust enough multiplayer component.

There's a right way and a wrong way to handle that, though. NieR: Automata is a surprising case study on how to do a lot of things properly; one of those things was getting the word out about how much the director humbly beseeches players not to cheapen the experience for each other, because it's something you kind of have to experience for yourself. It's worked too, as far as I can tell; I've not seen ANYONE breach spoiler protocol on this plot despite it completely upending itself roughly every 5 hours or so.

Needless to say, Atlus's more brute-force method has not worked as well.


I think that's the big thing - their complaint is perfectly reasonable, but their methods are leading to kneejerk pushback. But yes, for a single-play story-driven game where the gameplay is almost incidental, you can get some 90% of the experience by watching someone stream it, and that'll be disastrous.

The number of people I've seen saying they wish they hadn't bought the game because of how disgusting Atlus is for not wanting people to get their entire game for free is sad, though.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

User avatar
Mothra
Woah Dangsaurus
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:12 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Mothra » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:26 pm

Niku wrote:more importantly tag your p5 protag names i'm Risky Tanaka

Weasley Watanabe

User avatar
Defenestration
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:25 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Defenestration » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:14 am

Mongrel wrote:The only one I played was P3. I tried to do as was mentioned and just play on my own without trying to max everything, and I was *almost* able to stomach the grind thanks to playing it on an emulator. But then I discovered that there were entire characters who I missed out on because I said the wrong thing on one day in one conversation which was my ONLY CHANCE to access those characters and that just broke my will to play, so I finally gave up about 2/3rds of the way through.

I feel I should point out... that's kind of the point. Persona 4, for example, is straight up impossible to get 100% on and it's brilliant. There is literally not enough time to get all links, max out all stats, read all the books, *and* advance the plot via dungeon.

It makes the conversations fun with others who, inevitably, discovered or finished different social links than you did. Missing out the one or two social link plots you did is not that big a deal and will not significantly alter the experience. ...Unless it was Tower. There are some *bitchin'* Tower Personas that are really flexible in 3.
Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 7510
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: Canadumb

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Mongrel » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:25 am

Nah, he's pretty easy to pick up at least.

There's a difference though between freely choosing one link over another when you know you don't have time for everyone (which is cool and well-thought out and adds replay value as well) versus not being able to find links which you know you want to pursue, because you missed the one tiny clue on one interaction on the one day it was ever available (I'm mainly thinking of Death, but there were a couple others I was pissed to miss out on).

The thing was, if it was just the grind that was awful and not the link clues, I probably would have carried through to the end. Or if the link clues remained obscure and difficult but there was no horrible grind then, again, I probably would have made it to the end. The combination of both was just like "Okay, bleah, forget it."
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 5084
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Thad » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:37 pm

I understand the idea of avoiding spoilers; I'm still kinda bummed that last week I clicked on the wrong thread and bumped into spoilers for Persona *4*, a game released during the Bush administration.

But using technical measures and vague legal threats to prevent your customers from enjoying your product the wrong way? Not a fan.

LPs aren't really my thing; I'm mostly not interested in watching someone else play a video game. But it's quite clear that a lot of people are. It seems to me that LPs are like fan art: they may technically violate copyright, but for a company to actually *enforce* that copyright is tone-deaf and ill-conceived.

I'm not sympathetic to the "lost sales" argument, which I've seen deployed for every anti-consumer measure that's been enacted in my adult life. First of all, the methodology behind "proving" lost sales is always, *always* suspect; by its nature it relies on speculation about a parallel universe where modern electronics exist but modern methods of communication do not. Second, even if we take "lost sales" claims at face value, if you're actually losing sales because your product fails to meet your potential customers' needs in some way, that's on you. If people don't want to play your game because it focuses on a linear plot and the actual interactivity -- the part of it that *makes it a game* -- is not appealing enough to drive sales on its own merits, then you should either reconsider your approach to game design, or stick with what you're doing and accept those lost sales as the cost of doing business in a connected, twenty-first century world. Because there are tradeoffs involved with *any* design, development, or distribution decision. (I haven't bought it because I don't own a console I can play it on. Is that a lost sale too?)

All of which makes for a tremendously negative post, of course, and I'm not actually down on P5, or the series' design in general. I like P4 a lot, in spite of my (and others') complaints upthread; I want to see P5 succeed, and to see more games like it, and I look forward to playing it eventually. And the good news is, it seems to be selling well!

So it seems to me that Atlus (and it seems like it's mostly Atlus Japan we're talking about here) should be happy with the hype and the sales it's getting in real life, rather than the ones that it *thinks* it would get in a parallel universe where mass distribution of video content did not exist.

Or, y'know, fix the shit that makes it so people would rather watch someone else play its game than play it themselves. That's an option too.

User avatar
Joxam
Imperisaurus Rex
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Joxam » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:35 pm

In fairness to Atlus or any game company some of "the shit" is not really in their control. For example the kids working at my theatre can and do watch LPs on their cell phone in their downtime between movie sets and cleaning, but they cant exactly break out a PS4 in between helping customers and cleaning a popcorn popper to play P5. Or between classes at school. I know very few people who watch LPs of games they are totally uninterested in (unless its a comedy lp designed for the LPers suffering) most people I know that watch LPs do so for time or lifestyle reason. Hell the only reason I've not got P5 right now is the sheer volume of good games out since the beginning of the year coupled with my full time job. I'm at a point in my life where 80 hour jrpg is like two plus months of gaming.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 5084
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Thad » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:53 pm

Joxam wrote:In fairness to Atlus or any game company some of "the shit" is not really in their control.


Of course it isn't. That's why their heavy-handed attempts at controlling it are so badly misplaced and can achieve no possible positive result.

For example the kids working at my theatre can and do watch LPs on their cell phone in their downtime between movie sets and cleaning, but they cant exactly break out a PS4 in between helping customers and cleaning a popcorn popper to play P5. Or between classes at school. I know very few people who watch LPs of games they are totally uninterested in (unless its a comedy lp designed for the LPers suffering) most people I know that watch LPs do so for time or lifestyle reason. Hell the only reason I've not got P5 right now is the sheer volume of good games out since the beginning of the year coupled with my full time job. I'm at a point in my life where 80 hour jrpg is like two plus months of gaming.


And that's the thing: I'm not seeing any lost sales in those examples. Atlus is trying to crack down on streaming because it thinks people are going to watch videos of the game instead of buying it. But that's a false choice. Assuming someone will buy the game just because they can't find LPs of it is a pretty questionable assumption.

User avatar
Brentai
Woah Dangsaurus
Posts: 1886
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:40 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Brentai » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:37 pm

Pirates, as usual, are unaffected.

User avatar
François
Posts: 964
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:00 am

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby François » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Heck, if a LP of the original NieR hadn't made me into a huge fan despite not owning a console that can play it, I definitely wouldn't have pre-ordered its sequel. In fact, considering the criticism it got, if I had played it myself, it seems there's a fair chance I would have disliked it. The LP didn't just bring it to my attention, it actually showed it in the best possible light.

User avatar
Defenestration
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:25 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Defenestration » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:15 am

And I named my protagonist Akira Kurusu because I am bad at japanese names and I am boring
Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem

User avatar
Mothra
Woah Dangsaurus
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:12 pm
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Mothra » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:19 am

fuck work fuck work fuck work I've had this since wednesday and played all of 10 minutes so far

User avatar
Defenestration
Posts: 247
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:25 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Defenestration » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:31 am

Spoiler Free hints for dudes starting out (some of which made me restart my playthrough for)

1. Check out a book from the library as soon as you have the reins taken off!
2. The drink dispensers in the school courtyard have drinks that refill SP which is super rare early!
3. Clean your room ASAP, it's definitely worth it.
4. Don't forget that having a persona of the same arcana equipped gives you bonus points on social links, just like 3 and 4
5. There's the aboveground stores in Shibuya, and also an underground mall with unique stores in the same area; look for it by the subway junctions.
Una salus victis nullam sperare salutem

Niku
Posts: 602
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:23 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Niku » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:13 pm

I am TOLD that (no names given to tie them to their Arcana, and I don't even know who they are yet) that mechanically speaking, you want to max Temperance ASAP and get Fortune to level 7 ASAP if you're going for a 100% playthrough. Not sure why or what those things actually get you, just that it's apparently Good for confidanting it up. The recommendation goes something like Temperance -> 5, Fortune -> 7, Temperance -> Max when you can after that. Also, Death for SP-recovery items, but supposedly they're expensive in the early going.

I'm halfway through the first Palace at the moment and I know this is not a new observation but THE FUCKING STYLE OF THIS GODDAMN GAME. The mechanics for finding cover are a little fiddly, but combat FEELING this good on such a standard old system is a ridiculous win for a game where you're going to be doing a lot of fighting. I am also ridiculously stoked now that demon negotiation is back. I played through Persona 1 when it got remade for the PSP and I didn't realize how much I missed those arbitrary motherfuckers until now.

Also also, regarding the Streaming Bullshit: Sega's being equally restrictive about goddamn Puyo Puyo Tetris, so not shooting themselves in the foot regarding their argument about Persona 5 being a story-driven single player experience isn't high on their list of priorities. Man, what a boneheaded goddamn move to put such a bad taste in the public consciousness about your cool games.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 5084
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Thad » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:05 pm

You're also not allowed to stream Puyo Puyo Tetris. Because I guess people might not play Puyo Puyo Tetris if somebody spoils the plot for them.


User avatar
Lyrai
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:34 pm

Re: Shin Megami Threadsei

Postby Lyrai » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:05 pm

Thad, you just mongrel'd. Look at the post directly above yours.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests