Undertale

[pacobird]

I would add that it passes what I consider the threshold for "art", in that it actually succeeds in using its medium to communicate its themes in a way that would not work in another medium. If Undertale were a movie or a TV show, it would be stupid.

It is not that hard to get people to like you; the hard part is doing it every day.

[Friday]

If Undertale were a movie or a TV show, it would be stupid.

or if it were a webcomic it would be homestuck

and also stupid

[pacobird]

Yeah, I guess if I have one complaint there are some Internet Howlers that will make it difficult for a lot of people who might appreciate it to dig through to what is probably the best critique of video game violence ever made (you didn't do this because you're evil, you did it because you could).

[zaratustra]

The game certainly does a lot not only to give players the -choice- to not fight, but to give them a -reason- to not do so.

* SOME SPOILERS FORWARD *

I'm building a Full Unified Theory of Likeable Characters, but it seems to be a combination of these:

Accessible - Same trick as Homestuck; make a whole non-human (and therefore aracial and partially agendered) population that nevertheless appreciates human culture (The Space Otaku Hypothesis). Now you can have characters talking about spaghetti instead of endlessly describing the properties of elven bread.

Lively - The Bechdel Rule of Videogames: have two NPCs talk to each other about something that is not the PC. When was the last time you saw a named NPC with an actual personalized home that didn't double as a shop or an inn?

Conflicted - Each Undertale main NPC has at least two expressed desires, and their whole change of mind regarding the PC happens when they discard one desire in favor of the other. (Papyrus - fame/friendship, Undyne - duty/respect, etc) In a way, everyone has a pretty good (if a bit immoral) reason to kill the PC, and by -not- killing the PC, they're putting their hope on the line.

[pacobird]

And from the player's perspective, it really is an examination of determination: what does it mean to be determined?

Early today I read an article by a guy complaining that the game "hid the ball" with Toriel. Despite assuring you you can resolve conflicts non-violently, nothing happens when you select the Spare option. Ultimately, he attacked her because he thought he had to to advance, she died, and it "ruined" his run.

The incredible thing here is how wildly this author misses the point. He attacked her because he didn't think he had another option, which is exactly what Toriel tells you monsters are going to be mistaken about the second you leave the Ruins. The puzzle here, if you can even call it that, is that there IS no puzzle. You just have to be absolutely determined not to kill Toriel and refuse to accept it when the game suggests there's no other way forward. The author failed because he was not determined, and knuckled under the pressure. It's brilliant.

On the other hand, is it always desirable to be determined? Is determination worth anything at all if you don't have a motive? This is Sans's point at the end of Genocide: he has some vague idea he's in a video game (though he doesn't put it that way), that he's fodder who exists for XP, but his awareness (while it's enough to allow him to straight up cheat) is not enough to break the cycle, so he puts it on you. He anticipates your first line of psychological defense ("this is just a game; I just want to see what happens") and pushes past it with "If this doesn't matter, why do it at all? Why do you keep grinding XP? What are you expecting to happen?"

[Friday]

I'm not going to spoiler tag your quote or my reply, paco, because honestly I don't think people who haven't played through the game are reading this thread and our community is small enough to where it doesn't matter.

However, if you somehow haven't played Undertale and care about spoilers and are reading this (why?) then SPOILER WARNING BELOW:

Early today I read an article by a guy complaining that the game "hid the ball" with Toriel. Despite assuring you you can resolve conflicts non-violently, nothing happens when you select the Spare option. Ultimately, he attacked her because he thought he had to to advance, she died, and it "ruined" his run.

Yeah that's horseshit. The first-time play Toriel kill (which happened to me) exists because it preys on the player's prior assumptions. It assumes the player has played jrpgs before, knows about the "beat them to low and then they submit" trope, and presents a situation in which it appears that trope is in effect.

Also, sparing Toriel only "does nothing" in that her first response is a simple "...". Each spare beyond that changes her response slightly, which encourages you to keep sparing. Now, if you had to spare Toriel 10 times in a row, and each time her response was just "...", then yeah, that's hiding the ball.

Him claiming it "ruined his run" is also complete bullshit, as Flowey appears after you kill her and goes LOL IF ONLY YOU HAD SOME WAY TO CHANGE THIS RESULT TOO BAD YOU DON'T which is literally him going LOAD YOUR SAVE RETARD so that he can then troll the shit out of the player by revealing he still knows you killed her.

But that's it. The only thing that changes is Flowey trolls you. You still accomplish your goal of restoring your pacifist run.

The author is just mad that the game tricked him and is trying to blame the game, instead of appreciating how clever the game is for being able to trick him in the first place.

[Friday]

In a way, everyone has a pretty good (if a bit immoral) reason to kill the PC, and by -not- killing the PC, they're putting their hope on the line.

The true value of these characters is that it's most likely a Genocide run would be done after a true pacifist run (almost 100% likely) and then during it because their reasons for stopping you become actually valid (you're a monster who has to be stopped) it causes the player to actively root against themselves (Undyne the Undying fight) which is something I have not ever seen before.

The Sans fight is more of a meta thing, though you still root against yourself a bit. But that's more like what Paco was talking about, he's examining the player's intentions more than just trying to kill a monster like Undyne was.

[Esperath]

The first-time play Toriel kill (which happened to me) exists because it preys on the player's prior assumptions. It assumes the player has played jrpgs before, knows about the "beat them to low and then they submit" trope, and presents a situation in which it appears that trope is in effect.

Doesn't even assume that they know the trope; they have a frog who explicitly states that some monsters will lose the will to fight when brought to low HP, while simultaneously stating that you may have to spare someone without yellow text.

[Friday]

Oh, okay. I had forgotten that part.

The Sans fight is more of a meta thing, though you still root against yourself a bit. But that's more like what Paco was talking about, he's examining the player's intentions more than just trying to kill a monster like Undyne was.

Actually, it's simpler than this: Undyne is fighting against the in-universe character (The Fallen Child) and Sans is fighting against the player, directly.

[Newbie]

CONTINUING THE SPOILERS: A point made on reddit that I enjoyed: Sans has fight music on the soundtrack, but that isn't what actually plays when you fight him. Instead, it's Megalovania, which was most recently used in Homestuck as the score for a couple of people with godlike powers and obvious megalomania. The parallel should be clear: when you fight Sans, that's your theme music that's playing, not his.

[Esperath]

so much dog residue

[zaratustra]

best joke

Frisk's gender is





to be determined

[Esperath]

The rush of puberty sets in... You're filled with TESTOSTERONE.

[zaratustra]

[Esperath]

I was fully expecting Pat Robertson to start blaming the gays for this (even without context), but his response was surprisingly measured. "it's just a fad, and if you're really that worried, why not find something else for her to do rather than whine to me?"

[Metal Slime]

Contains some amounts of genocide spoilers.

[Esperath]

[13:11:52] <myew> That and the only thing stronger than temmie is temmie.

[Esperath]

friduka, become friskuca

[Metal Slime]

[Kayma]

Finished the True Pacifist mode this morning. It says something that I simply do not have it in me to reset and go genocide; I am 100% just going to watch a let's play of it. So, they called that.

This is a really special game. I really did not know what to expect... I was afraid it was going to be Space Funeral Redux for awhile, but I'm glad it turned out to be... whatever it is. Loved it.

And that soundtrack has been on loop in my head for a week. How did basically one human make this?