Lord of the Rings: Shadow of War

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Bal
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Lord of the Rings: Shadow of War

Postby Bal » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:31 am

So the new Lord of the Rings: Arkham Asylum game has decided to give SHELOB a sexy lady form and I am so angry in so many different ways as both a human and a nerd.

Shelob isn't even a fucking spider! She's the last daughter of Ungoliant, a literal manifestation of darkness. She's evil in an elemental way that even Sauron doesn't match. He's got plans, she's got webs and eats suffering. Like, what could even be fucking accomplished by making her a character? Her agenda is 100% MURDERING AND EATING PEOPLE. Even calling her "her" and implying that she's meaningfully female is fucking farcical. Shelob is a darkness monster that exudes despair, weaves webs made out of darkness, and whose motivation is elemental fucking suffering for everyone.

What the fuck are they even.

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Thad
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Thad » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:46 am

I can't even really bring myself to be mad about it. It's one more powerfully dumb thing in Stabby Batman Goes to Mordor. I'm rolling my eyes but I'm more amused than annoyed.

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Friday
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Friday » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:36 am

In the game after this Treebeard, Carcharoth, Gothmog, Haldir, Yavanna, Wormtongue, all the dwarves fused into one gigantic dwarf, and the mountain range Crissaegrim will also reveal that they have kinky sexy lady forms.
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Brentai
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Brentai » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:33 am

I mean, it sort of works? If you reason that, because Ungoliath was a formless being of darkness that took spider form just because she happened to enjoy fuckeating male spiders, Shelob might as well be too, and can be assumed to be sentient and reasonable since she makes an alliance with Gollum. So yeah Shelob could be a sexy, Machiavellian shapeshifter if you want I guess.

Or she's a giant fucking spider and Gollum is insane. That would have worked too.

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malikial
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby malikial » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:36 am

I might be the biggest Tolkien nerd on these here forums with the amount of times I've actually read all the shit including the Silmarillion and all that other shit and the fact that I have whole shelves of books just about what other people think of Tolkien's shit from Bestiaries to Fan Works... and I still really like Lord of the Rings Shadow of Mordor for it's being fun as fuck after a bit of drink and chips. Same reason I'm gonna get War, I consider it a fun as fuck game that I love that I can play while having a beer and chips KIND OF SORT OF STANDS AROUND Tolkien's stuff. I don't consider it a Tolkien game.


Edit: I'm probably wrong, yall probably way deeper into it than me now that I think about it but still. I stand by my, fuck it I'm gonna have some beer and bang my swords against orcs.

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Mongrel
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Mongrel » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:10 pm

In the next episode Gandalf regenerates again into a sexy lady and all the fans complain that that's not how Istarii work.
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Niku
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Niku » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:12 pm

i hate lord of the rings and love sexy spider ladies

everything's comin' up meathouse
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Destynova » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:38 pm

Waiting for the Ringwraiths to toss back their cloaks to reveal moe ghosts.

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Thad
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Thad » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:47 pm

Brentai wrote:I mean, it sort of works? If you reason that, because Ungoliath was a formless being of darkness that took spider form just because she happened to enjoy fuckeating male spiders,

Trees. Ungoliant ate trees.

malikial wrote:Edit: I'm probably wrong, yall probably way deeper into it than me now that I think about it but still.

Well, I did kinda run out of steam after The Lays of Beleriand.

I stand by my, fuck it I'm gonna have some beer and bang my swords against orcs.

Hey, I like Stabby Batman Goes to Mordor. My biggest gripe is the sameyness. Which sort of comes with the territory, when the territory is Mordor. It's an open-world game in a setting where nobody would ever want to go.

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Mongrel
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Mongrel » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:57 pm

I told a guy I know who's basically a professional Tolkien nerd about the Shelob thing.

He'd never heard of the game series before. So he went on for a while about how it was actually in keeping with past lore that Maiar can change shape, that there's precedent for the ability (Melian, Sauron, some others) albeit it's unclear what the exact constraints are, where Maiar abilities end and plain old elvish magic begins, etc. Also that in general Maiar and Valar have a pretty long list of instances where they transfer power to physical bodies. So in that regard, Shelob changing shape could theoretically fit with past mythology.

But then he looked up the actual game and watching his reactions has been fun, to say the least.

Jack wrote:Man. I am looking up the plot to Shadow of Mordor.

Holy shit this is bad and non-canonical.

It's hard to even know where to start.

It literally reads like someone watched the movies once and immediately started writing fan fiction without any further research or ever looking anything up, even just on the wiki.

Jack wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:Talion, a captain of Gondor, serves within a garrison stationed at the Black Gate of Mordor. The garrison is attacked by Sauron's Orc forces led by three Black Númenórean captains; the Hammer of Sauron (John DiMaggio), the Tower of Sauron (J. B. Blanc), and their leader, the Black Hand of Sauron (Nolan North). Talion, his wife Ioreth (Laura Bailey), and his adult son, Dirhael, are captured and ritually sacrificed by the Black Hand in an attempt to summon into himself the wraith of the Elf Lord Celebrimbor. However, Celebrimbor (who suffers from amnesia due to his centuries as a wraith) instead merges with Talion, preventing him from dying alongside his family. Talion and Celebrimbor then depart to both uncover Celebrimbor's identity—increasing his/their power—and avenge the death of Talion's family.
That is probably the worst idea for a Middle Earth plot I could possibly imagine.

Jack wrote:I started to play a video where the creators supposedly explain their reasoning for why Shelob takes a human form.

I'm on pause and staring at the screen and unsure if I can get past, "In very much the same way that Gadriel [sic] guides Frodo, in Lord of the Rings, Shelob guides Talion..."

Jack wrote:Holy shit

Gazing at Mount Doom, Talion declares his intention to forge a new Ring of Power.


I am torn between being angry, and being delighted that I have finally found the perfect vessel to hold all of my hate and rage.


EDIT: Now we're all trying to convince him to do a livestream of him playing Shadows of Mordor. xD
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Friday
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Friday » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:49 am

It literally reads like someone watched the movies once and immediately started writing fan fiction without any further research or ever looking anything up, even just on the wiki.


Shelob: *fly's down looking at u* so your talion

Talion: Yeah.

Shelob: *takes out my stinger* im here to kill u before anything happens to Sauron being attacked again

Talion: What are you talking about?

Shelob: don't lie talion cause i saw gollum talking to u about this war

Talion: Oh yes, the war.

Shelob: *aims the stinger at u* now then since u know what im talking about then i geuss this is where u die talion

Talion: *Pulls out my sword* I don't think so.

Shelob: *the one spider leg comes out from my back* we will see about that

Talion: Bring it on.

Shelob: *fly's behind u in fast speed then cuts your back and sends u to the air* this should be fun *brings out fire storms to hurt u from above*

Talion: *Stabs you and kicks you to the ground*

Shelob: *grabs your sword before hurting me then slams your body to a building breaking your arm* is that all u got

Talion: *Lightning comes out of my arms*

Shelob: *holds up my stinger then brings out meteor showers to attack u from above*

Talion: *Blows up the meteors with lightning*

Shelob: *cuts both of your arms off from behind then stabs your chest hanging u up* it's over talion u lost

Talion: *It's a hologram*
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Bal
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Bal » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:56 am

He has given voice to my thoughts on this. Except that Shelob is unlikely to be a Maiar.

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sei
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby sei » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:44 am

Destynova wrote:Waiting for the Ringwraiths to toss back their cloaks to reveal moe ghosts.


am i kowai uUuuuUUuu
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Büge
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Büge » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:36 am

I like what Jim Sterling had to say about the issue.



For those who don't want to click, it can basically be summarized as "there's nothing inherently wrong with making Shelob take a seductive human form but it's both boring, because it turns a fairly unique character into just another generic sexy lady, and disappointing, because keeping Shelob as a terrifying bloated arachnid that the protagonist has to ally with is more interesting than a generic sexy lady that the protagonist has to ally with."

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TA
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby TA » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:14 am

Bal wrote:He has given voice to my thoughts on this. Except that Shelob is unlikely to be a Maiar.


I remember reading up on the character and from what I could tell, while Ungoliant is a subspecies of Maiar and a whole big deal, there's no indication whatsoever that Shelob is possessed of any of Ungoliant's magic or anything? Immortal, intelligent enough to bargain with Gollum, and otherwise just a very large and mundane spider. She's been sitting in Cirith Ungol since the Second Age eating anything that comes through and doing fuck-all else. Everything the trailers have shown is ... nonsense.
のほも is such a good word?? the concept is kind of hard to fully get across in translation, but basically it means a feeling of pure, deep, platonic affection, and i think thats beautiful

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Thad
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Thad » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:46 am

Friday wrote:Shelob: *cuts both of your arms off from behind then stabs your chest hanging u up* it's over talion u lost


Hey, Glorfindel I had both his arms broken and still managed to kill a Balrog by ramming it headfirst with his pointy helmet.

Tolkien as metal as fuck, you guys.

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zaratustra
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby zaratustra » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:49 am

when did this (curvy goth lady) become sexier than this (giant freaking spider)

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Mongrel
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Mongrel » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:28 pm

TA wrote:
Bal wrote:He has given voice to my thoughts on this. Except that Shelob is unlikely to be a Maiar.


I remember reading up on the character and from what I could tell, while Ungoliant is a subspecies of Maiar and a whole big deal, there's no indication whatsoever that Shelob is possessed of any of Ungoliant's magic or anything? Immortal, intelligent enough to bargain with Gollum, and otherwise just a very large and mundane spider. She's been sitting in Cirith Ungol since the Second Age eating anything that comes through and doing fuck-all else. Everything the trailers have shown is ... nonsense.

Ungoliant was - at the height of her power - strong enough to cow even Melkor, the mightiest of the Valar.

It's unclear what her own origins are (which is why Shelob isn't a lock to be a Maiar, technically). She could be a Maiar, but there's no indication for this in any extant texts of Tokien, whereas some Book of Lost Tales material describes her as a spirit of the void (which was actually never claimed to be empty - Eru is just the only void spirit who is well known).

Tolkien calls Shelob "the last unhappy child of Ungoliant", so either she's a direct descendent of a Maiar (Ungoliant and Shelob are both described as heavily inbreeding with their own offspring) with some spider blood (and therefore something akin to Melian, but with a higher percentage of Maia), or the direct descendent of some outer void spirit.

Magic powers are pretty typically described as being hereditary in Middle-Earth, and Shelob is cited as having the power to spread unnatural darkness so there's something there at least.

Obviously the trailers are still hilarious nonsense though.
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Bal
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Bal » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:43 pm

Yeah, the main problem with nailing down Shelob's lineage is that nothing Tolkien ever wrote actually nailed down what the fuck Ungoliant actually was. In The Silmarillion Ungoliant is described as "An evil spirit in the form of a spider", which could be a lot of things. Deep lore nuts will often cite her as being of the Maiar because both the distinction Valar and Maiar are unique to Middle Earth, basically denoting power, while outside they're all Ainur of some description. So if she's, say, an Ainur drawn to Middle Earth by Morgoth, being part of his camp to begin with, then she would most likely technically count as a Maiar. Her power growing to cow even Morgoth is only when she drinks from both of the trees and grows enormous enough to blot out the fucking sky. It should also be noted that Morgoth is very weak compared to his former self at this point.

The whole thing has been a sticking point for fans since forever. Shelob is definitely powerful though, weaving literal webs of darkness and the like, and seems to be a first generation descendant of Ungoliant, compared to the lesser spider creatures such as those in Murkwood who have no particular power beyond being giant horrible spiders. However, the ability to shapeshift? Maybe, but her form is so essential to her nature that I'm not sure.

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Friday
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Re: Game musings and news

Postby Friday » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:11 pm

I don't remember where I read it, but I distinctly remember Ungoliant coming from "outside" and being basically in the same camp as Bombadil: she doesn't fall into any established camps because not everything has to.

Her being a separate (lesser) Void creature like Eru makes the most sense to me, but Tolkien specifically left some thing unexplained because he (unlike most writers) understood the power of leaving things unexplained.

"there's nothing inherently wrong with making Shelob take a seductive human form but it's both boring, because it turns a fairly unique character into just another generic sexy lady, and disappointing, because keeping Shelob as a terrifying bloated arachnid that the protagonist has to ally with is more interesting than a generic sexy lady that the protagonist has to ally with."


Pretty much this. I don't have a problem with Shelob turning into a sexy lady beyond that it's boring, overused, tired, bland, etc. Plus it's directly ripping off Lolth, or whoever the fuck was the very first "giant spider that is also a sexy lady, since copied 742893562896754 times per microsecond in all fantasy games/movies/books/fanfictions."

tl;dr: It's not bad writing per se, it's just boring, everyday, bland hack writing. It would have been far more interesting to have Talion just directly ally with a horrible bloated Spider for whatever reason.
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