Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

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Kazz
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Kazz » Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:23 pm

Re: the Devil. It wasn't Bar of Soap's responsibility to go "well, I'm dying! Here's a new wolf contact," because players have no idea when/if they're going to die. The wolf team already believed the Devil was Rosencrantz and there'd been no reason to doubt that fact, so one of them should have contacted him after Bar's death to keep the information flowing.

It's possible that they feared he was the Weretiger, but I'm not sure how much harm that would have done them; the real Devil would still be out there and the mere fact that more people are talking to them, even in an attempt to mislead them, is helpful information. The Tiger is the game's biggest coward (design-wise, anyway) and can't do anything too ballsy with the name of a wolf. And in this playgroup, where confidently claiming in-topic you know 100% for sure who the wolf is gets you lynched, I would have trusted Rosencrantz by Day 2 at least.

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re: Day 1. The innocents couldn't seem to handle the concept of a seer role-claiming immediately to finger a wolf. People in our group tend to play conservatively, but it shocked me that you guys went as far as lynching him. I'd like to show you Rosencrantz's Day 1 voting log which he helpfully provided to the wolves (and they still didn't trust him):

Bar of Soap -> Rosencrantz
Joe -> Seeker
Rosencrantz -> Greeter -> Sam Wolfton -> Captain Silver -> Joe
Captain Silver -> Bar of Soap -> Joe
Mr. Associate -> iamawolf -> seeker -> highlander -> Seeker -> Joe
iamawolf -> Mr Associate -> Captain Silver
The Greetest -> Joe
Highlander -> Rosencrantz -> Joe
Greeter -> The Greetest -> Joe
Sam Wolfton -> Captain Silver -> Retracted -> Seeker
Seeker -> Joe


Two of the three wolves, the Devil, and the Weretiger were all on the bandwagon to kill the claimed seer. What does that tell you about that strategy?

On EpicMafia, at high-level serious play, the first thing that happens on each day phase is the seer claim. Seriously. If a cop finds a mafia, he claims immediately. "Cop here, X is a mafia. Doc on me." If there's a counterclaim, they lynched one of the two claimed seers, which either kills a mafia (because who else would counterclaim seer) or confirms one (or two, if the cop reported a mafia target). Without a counterclaim, the seer that claimed is considered confirmed.

My point is that it's not only perfectly normal to claim seer on Day 1, it's a pretty good play if you think you've found a wolf. The responsibility of protecting all these balls-out Seers is on the Baner; way too often I see Baners with nobody to protect in a target-rich environment because nobody has had the nuts to ask for their help.

Anyway, I feel as though Joe has some kind of psychological blind-spot when it comes to the fact that there was a Fool in this game. People even told him repeatedly that he could be the Fool and he stuck to his guns, shouting, "it's Seeker, it's Seeker, it's Seeker!" Which I respect, I guess, but I don't think the right play was to lynch either Joe or Seeker. I think it was to wait on this situation, get more information from Seers, and lynch one of the people championing the hanging of a Seer on Day 1 (though I'm not sure I would have lynched Captain Silver in case he just turned around and shot Joe anyway with his Hunter power).

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re: the Revealer.

I think this role was certainly overpowered, but it was also exactly what the doctor ordered for the innocents this game. Sam Wolfton (the real Seer) was setting himself up to be the leader of the innocents when he was slaughtered, and the game looked like it could be over already. The innocents were in desperate need of a strong leader, and luckily iamawolf happened to be one and also to have a power where, in the middle of the day, God comes down and confirms you from on high. He also nabbed a wolf, which was deeply necessary.

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re: the Vigilante.

I don't have any fucking idea why Greeter shot Captain Silver. Or Highlander, for that matter, but I suppose it all worked out. I was glad to see somebody who wasn't a pussy about firing his goddamn weapon for once.

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re: the Wolves.

I think the wolves made two big mistakes:

1. not staying in touch with the Devil, who was left floundering and ended up scrying Highlander (a wolf) on Night 2 and helping exactly nobody.

2. killing the Weretiger.

In one of Highlander's final wolf PMs, he's got a complete list of all players and their roles, with his only question marks being Greeter and Mr Associate, either of which could be the vigilante or weretiger. I wouldn't have picked either; the wolves knew how dangerous the Vig was, and indeed, Highlander got sniped, but it's not worth risking your only stalling tactic in a game that's quickly swinging out of your favor. The Weretiger may seem powerful, but in truth, he's a hostage being held by both teams at once.

If I were them, I would have killed iamawolf. Even with no magic left, iamawolf was extremely important both as a confirmed innocent and as a personality. He quickly became the innocent team's pillar and ultimately won the game for them, whether they deserved it or not.
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Kayma
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Kayma » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:23 am

"Lynching the Seer" straight off is something I always see espoused as the best play (particularly on TT) and it has never made one bit of sense to me. I've argued against it as both wolf and innocent, though I strongly believe it ultimately benefits the wolves.

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Friday
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Friday » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:32 am

There's a lot of contention when it comes to optimal play in wolf. I tend to play high risk regardless of what team I'm on, but mostly because I am more interested that way. Safe play makes for a boring game. It's why I usually go crazy.
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Kazz
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Kazz » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:32 am

I feel the same way as Friday. I like to take big chances and act insane. I really want to play in a wolf game, but running them is almost as good.

Next one will be a bit weirder, I think. It's time for a mix-up.
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ocksi
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby ocksi » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:56 am

Day 1/Night 1 of this game was just a flood of bad play. All the bad guys bandwagoned, we lynched a claimed seer, the vigilante killed a claimed bonus kill. I really don't know why the people on Bronto are scared of role-claims in games without turn powers: information is more powerful for team innocent than any other team, so let your allies know who you are.

Also, I like the Revealer conceptually, but it is too strong. I'd say the fix is have him make his reveal claim in public, but have the information delivered privately. It reintroduces the major weakness of other innocent roles: it can be falsely claimed, but also has the strength of being verifiable by lynch.

zaratustra
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby zaratustra » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:08 am

Kazz wrote:Two of the three wolves, the Devil, and the Weretiger were all on the bandwagon to kill the claimed seer. What does that tell you about that strategy?


I don't have any fucking idea why Greeter shot Captain Silver. Or Highlander, for that matter, but I suppose it all worked out. I was glad to see somebody who wasn't a pussy about firing his goddamn weapon for once.


So, is killing people that voted to lynch the Seer a good idea? or a bad idea? Because that's exactly what I did.

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Lottel
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Lottel » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:19 am

This was an incredibly fun game to sit by and watch. I wanted to grab popcorn and watch people flounder all day. 9/10, would watch again.
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Kazz
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Kazz » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:37 pm

zaratustra wrote:
Kazz wrote:Two of the three wolves, the Devil, and the Weretiger were all on the bandwagon to kill the claimed seer. What does that tell you about that strategy?


I don't have any fucking idea why Greeter shot Captain Silver. Or Highlander, for that matter, but I suppose it all worked out. I was glad to see somebody who wasn't a pussy about firing his goddamn weapon for once.


So, is killing people that voted to lynch the Seer a good idea? or a bad idea? Because that's exactly what I did.


It really depends. There was no counter-claim for Hunter, so Captain Silver was just about confirmed innocent. I wouldn't have considered him suspicious. None of the others who voted had claimed anything yet, and anyway, he was a fine lynch target for the next day given his claimed power.
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Kazz
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Re: Welcome to Wolf-Mart (Gameplay)

Postby Kazz » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:38 pm

ocksi wrote:Also, I like the Revealer conceptually, but it is too strong. I'd say the fix is have him make his reveal claim in public, but have the information delivered privately. It reintroduces the major weakness of other innocent roles: it can be falsely claimed, but also has the strength of being verifiable by lynch.


That's exactly the change I should make to it. Thank you.
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