Brontoforumus

Thad wrote:

Mongrel wrote:That's the thing. I know enough about the series to know what beat posted; that being "good" is some kind of punishable offence in Westeros. That even the few characters with plot armour out of a *very* large cast end up as either functional villains or at least rationalizing consequentialists. While I can stay attached to SOME characters like that (Tyrion is the easiest, really), but if you do it to every single one, it's clear that there's no point in investing anything into those characters.

I think that's an absolutely horrifying message for our age. Or any age, really. Of course lots of people contain a mixture of good and evil which many of us find hard to process, most people, really. But not EVERYONE.

It reminds me of an argument I had with a fellow over Blood Meridian. While I can concede the book is impressive in a purely prose sense, it's just so repellent there's no way I could ever enjoy it. People keep telling me that this is intentional and that the book is mean to bring the horror and hopelessness of "reality" to the reader, but I'm always screaming internally "DO YOU NOT READ THE NEWS?! HAVE YOU NEVER PICKED UP A HISTORY BOOK?! HAVE YOU NEVER LISTENED TO PEOPLE WHO'VE FLED REAL HORROR?! DO YOU EVEN GO OUTSIDE OR TALK TO ACTUAL HUMANS?!?!?!?".

I do not and will never need a book of fiction to tell me people are awful or conflicted or that the world is a terrible place, or - worse in my mind - that we should not grow attached to innocents or anyone who could be broadly defined as "genuinely good people", because they don't really exist.

"Evil always wins because good is dumb" is a joke, people. You're not actually supposed to take it at face value.

It's also why I appreciate Tolkien more. Because the core of the story, which is often overlooked, is that the heroes are profoundly ordinary people who learn through adversity to become heroes. They're not born as selfless paragons of virtue, or "chosen ones" (Bilbo is arguable there, but that's the Hobbit and not LotR) they're fat little ignorant bumpkins living a coddled life, who have to learn a lot, and quickly.

You...DO realize that you were just scoffing about how "most Tolkien haters got about a chapter in (if that), complained that Hobbits were gay, and stopped there," and then immediately turned around and wrote an essay about the themes and messages of a series of books you've never read, right?

I've had plenty of exposure through watching the show (intermittently), being dragged along while one of my groups of friends natter on endlessly about the both the show and the books, and Starr's read the books, and has discussed them with me in detail in the past.

I mean, sure you can still complain that I have incomplete knowledge or that what I know is filtered (although this is through dozens of people with differing opinions and not just one), but I'm not talking from a position of total ignorance. I feel like I have enough exposure to form opinions on the broad themes and major arcs of the story. I actually kind of wish I DIDN'T know any of this stuff, that it was just another fantasy series I'd not read, but AGoT is everywhere thanks to the TV show, such that it's practically unavoidable.

So can we not play the "You haven't consumed X in full, excruciating detail, so you're barred from having an opinion on it" game?

I tried to read Ice & Fire one time, the primary difference I found was that I cared what happened to the hobbits. I guess the twenty years between might play some part in that.

Some mod should probably split this discussion in "R.R. BOWL GET HYPE" or something.

Anyway, just like in LotR, there's now a divided fanbase: Those who have read the books, and those who have only seen the movies/show. (And I a smaller subset who are books only.)

The books are better in most ways, the visual mediums in some ways. FotR is an amazing movie full of amazing cinematography. You simply do not get the same atmosphere by reading the book.

As far as GoT goes, I think the books are better but the show has tremendous performances. The Hound, Tywin, and Tyrion stand out to me (as do Cersei and Joff but it's harder to appreciate because they're so hateable) and almost everyone else is really good, too.

<@Romosome> have you seen the shibe lately
<@Romosome> has she yelled at skateboarders
<@Silversong> Not since last week, but I am confident she is yelling at skateboarders wherever she is.
<@Silversong> And bicyclists. She hates humans being on wheels.
<Brentai> No object should move that quickly.
<Brentai> If it does, it is a panther.


<SimonTheDigger> OH SHIT
<SimonTheDigger> SOMEBODY TRANSLATED G.O.D.
<JD> yeah it's called the bible

<Kishi> Game Theory: When Aunt Beru calls "Luuuuuuke!" in A New Hope, she's referring to a yet-unseen Luke clone

<@Cait> Huh. I hadn't seen this yet. "German drug and chemical maker Bayer is poised to buy agrochemical and agricultural biotechnology company Monsanto."
<zaratustra> good, i can consolidate my despise of chemical companies
<leeham> how much consolidation of evil has to happen before it's concentrated enough that a handful of teenagers with colourful hair can just walk up to it and stab it to death?
<leeham> where's the load-bearing villain

suddenly thinking of trump as president shinra and ivanka as rufus

Trump isn't even remotely smart enough to be anyone at Shinra.

Maybe Heidegger.

Bannon is a perfect Hojo, though.

I'm suddenly reminded of TA's avatar.

I'll give you that he's not smart enough, but if you can't imagine him getting stabbed by a weeaboo with mommy issues, and then within half an hour there's Ivanka popping up on fox news in a white trenchcoat with a panther and a shotgun, going "it takes too much to do it like my old man", then I don't know what to tell you.

That's assuming he's already dropped a plate on Sector 7.

addendum:

[1:46p] <Kazz> leeham: it's me
[1:46p] <Kazz> i didn't wanna come out and say it but
[1:46p] <Kazz> i'm behind all the world's problems
[1:47p] <Kazz> it's just a goof really
[1:47p] <Kazz> but if you wanna come stab me, i get it.
[1:48p] <Kazz> i'll be having a nap. but be warned: i have 8 fidget spinners and i know how to use them
[1:48p] <Kazz> myew: wake me if the heroes show up
[1:49p] <leeham> nice try but I already know you have to attack the healing spinner first
[1:49p] <myew> Kazz: Which is effectively rented cheaply, without a lucrative service contract. We have an axe will still fuck you want me to show it was all about broken heroes.
[1:49p] <Kazz> damn
[1:49p] * Kazz flies away on the escape spinner
[1:50p] <leeham> fighting spinners is easy as long as you have an item that prevents Distract

<Cannonball Fun> Twitter has given us this new kind of Prisoners' Dilemma where both people can see what the other is tweeting and they go ahead and fuck themselves anyway.

<fbm> bagpuss was banished tothe button moon via the big comfy couch for harboring alf

21:31 <fbm> fuck bart vs the space mutants
21:32 <SimonTheDigger> My money's on Fuck Bart

Who gives a shit about horse racing tho.

edit: in retrospect i probably :thatsthejoke:'d myself there :D

<@Friday> the problem is that people are really fucking hard cocked for alignments
<@Friday> they love that shit
<@Friday> it's nice and neat
<Kazz> are they?
<@Friday> everyone fits into 1 of 9 boxes
<+MarsDragon> It's also fun to argue about
<Kazz> i mean what if you save the orphanage
<Kazz> and then take the orphans
<Kazz> and just keep them?
<@Friday> like in real life people are actually not able to fit into 1 of 9 boxes, that's absurd
<@Friday> instead they fit into one of 16 boxes
<@Friday> like me, an intellectual INTP
<@Friday> or what the fuck ever
<Kazz> oh man
<Kazz> the myers briggs test is dopey
<Brentai> The Myers-Briggs test is supposed to be a suggestion, not a label.
<@Friday> actually everyone fits into 1 of however many X-men there are, boxes
<@Friday> I'm a Wolverine
<@Friday> Because I like killing and death but also hanging out with my friends
<Kazz> if you just line up all 6 billion humans and have them each complete like 200 facebook personality quizzes
<Kazz> i bet you will end up with like no exactly similar results
<Brentai> I'm a uhhh... probably Nightcrawler?
<Brentai> Hi, I'm Nightcrawler. I wish I was Gambit. Bye!
<@Friday> Because you come... and go quickly
<Kazz> i'm the blob
<@Friday> Kazz is the Blob because
<@Friday> he's gay
<@Friday> and the Blob is gay
<+Mazian> I think my occupation forces me into the Magneto box.
<leeham> the alignment system is just sort of a kludge so that there's a rules basis for "protection from evil" spells
<Kazz> yeah
<@Friday> leeham yep
<+MarsDragon> I guess I'm...uh, who's the awkward one who never leaves their room
<Kazz> the Blob just sits still and Juggernaut just rams his dick into his face and the universe collapses
<@Friday> Kazz that happened
<@Friday> in an X-Men book I read
<@Friday> I mean not with the dick
<Kazz> i figured someone would have done it
<@Friday> but they actually fought
<Kazz> what was the result yeah
<@Friday> it wasn't spectacular
<@Friday> basically
<@Friday> The Blob moved (he fell down) and the Juggernaut was stopped (he staggered and fell)
<Brentai> The Blob gets moved all the time.
<Brentai> Bonk.
<Kazz> sad trombone
<Kazz> the Blob was moved by Inside Out
<Brentai> I want a page of The Blob watching the end of Old Yeller, and he's just sitting there absolutely stone-faced.

Friday wrote:<Brentai> I want a page of The Blob watching the end of Old Yeller, and he's just sitting there absolutely stone-faced.

Anybody who needs an idea for their comic replacement comic, there you go!

Point of order: Blob is not gay; he's just a rodeo fan.

However,

Brian Cronin wrote:Last year, I talked about how John Byrne intended Pyro, of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, was gay and drew him with that in mind, but Chris Claremont decided to instead make him English…

I can't help but wonder if Byrne was making some kind of oblique "flaming" joke...