Hot Tweets Cool Treats

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Büge
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Büge » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:33 pm

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beatbandito
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby beatbandito » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:37 pm

Today I learned there's a guy named "Julian Castro" and all I know about him is that when Biden sets him up with "Buy-ins for people that can afford it is the same as healthcare for all" he still managed to fumble himself out of the race.
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Mongrel
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Mongrel » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:28 pm

Oh hey, thanks for the reminder to check up on her feed:

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Mongrel
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Mongrel » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:58 pm



Click through for the true horror (it's pics, otherwise I'd have just posted a threadreader link).
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pacobird
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby pacobird » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:23 am

beatbandito wrote:Today I learned there's a guy named "Julian Castro" and all I know about him is that when Biden sets him up with "Buy-ins for people that can afford it is the same as healthcare for all" he still managed to fumble himself out of the race.


Not only did he come this far only to look like an asshole, he brought up something that's real and actually matters - the cognitive decline of a man in his mid-to-late 70s - in a way that ensures we won't be able to talk about it again

It's not just about being old: Sanders and Warren's age is a concern too but they are not making mistakes one could attribute to Alzheimer's
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Thad » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:49 am

I didn't watch the latest debate because fuck it, it's a three-hour competition to come up with soundbites that will get on the news and playing Stardew Valley is a more satisfying use of my time. So I didn't see the Castro moment but I've seen some of the reaction to it.

I like Castro. I think it's pretty generous to say this is the moment he lost the race. He was the last person to qualify for this debate. His best polls have him at 2%. I think he's competing for the VP slot, and has been since he got attention in the first debate. And I don't think this disqualifies him from that race -- saying something offensive in a debate doesn't automatically disqualify you from the bottom of the ticket, and the most obvious immediate example of that is...Joe Biden.

It is worth talking about candidates aging and how that might affect their decision-making, especially considering Trump is the president. I'm not yet convinced that the foolish things Biden is saying are the result of his age; he's been saying stupid shit for 30 years. But it's a discussion worth having, and it's a shame Castro botched it. (Also, I've seen some posts online making fun of Biden's false teeth; that's not cool and it doesn't help. Some signs of aging are relevant to the task of governing, and some aren't.)

I still think Castro would be a great pick for VP.

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Upthorn
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Upthorn » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:04 am

Castro didn't bring up Biden's age. Castro brought up that Biden said a thing literally just a few minutes prior, that he was now denying saying. Everybody took it as a swipe at Biden's age, because memory issues are associated with aging, but what actually happened was:

Biden said "if you lose your insurance, you automatically buy in to medicare"
Castro said "Unlike with your plan, you don't have to buy in with mine"
Biden said "You don't have to buy in with my plan."
Castro said "You just said people buy in to medicare under your plan, are you forgetting what you just said two minutes ago?" and then didn't let it go, because they were debating policy specifics.

What Castro did is exactly what people should always do at debates -- hold people to the actual words that they actually said, and demand an explanation when a participant contradicts themselves.
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Thad » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:48 am

Even assuming he didn't intend it as a reference to Biden's age, he should have known that was the inference people would make. It's not like he didn't know Biden was old, or wasn't aware of Bennet's line in the first debate about passing a torch to a new generation, pundits and comics seizing on Biden saying "my time is up", criticisms of his stamina as debates drag on...

Castro's a smart guy. He understands optics. I grant it's possible he made an off-the-cuff remark without considering the fuller context it would evoke, but if that's what happened then it was a lapse in judgement. He's aware of that context. It was both obvious and foreseeable that people would take his remark to be a reference to Biden's age.

Like I said, the debates are largely a competition to come up with a soundbite, to have a moment that goes viral or gets played on the news. They're not about nuance; they're not about reality. They're about perception. I'm not saying that's the way things should be -- indeed, that's the reason I opted for Stardew Valley over actually watching the debate -- but it's the way they are.

Castro did a good job on creating a soundbite that got played on the news. But it was an own-goal.

Which is a pity, because he's proven pretty deft at this in the past. The reason we're even talking about him at this point, instead of consigning him to the Williamson/Gabbard tier, is that he did so well in the first debate.

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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Upthorn » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:05 am

What I'm saying is that the political culture that says "Castro was mean and shouldn't have done that" is rotten and needs to be excised.

Debates should not be a soundbite competition.

Saying "you're contradicting yourself, don't you remember what you just said 2 minutes ago?" is what everyone should be doing in debates wherever relevant.

I hard disagree with the narrative that Castro brought up Biden's age in anything remotely resembling an inappropriate way.
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Thad » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:51 pm

Upthorn wrote:What I'm saying is that the political culture that says "Castro was mean and shouldn't have done that" is rotten and needs to be excised.

Debates should not be a soundbite competition.


But they are.

I agree that pretty much everything about how our debates work is completely awful. But they're the system we have. Castro knows that, and he's playing the game just as surely as anybody else.

Saying "you're contradicting yourself, don't you remember what you just said 2 minutes ago?" is what everyone should be doing in debates wherever relevant.


"Wherever relevant" is an important qualifier. It's useful to point out inconsistency when appropriate. But I don't think that's what Castro was doing. He was looking for a soundbite; he was engaging in exactly the kind of play to the audience that you're decrying.

Biden's exact phrasing was "you automatically can buy into this." I don't know what the fuck that's supposed to mean -- is it automatic, or do you have to buy in? -- but he definitely used the word "automatically". I think picking at the contradiction between "automatically" and "buy in" may have been a good call if Castro had chosen to go that route, but taking a jab at Biden for saying "buy in" and ignoring that he said "automatically" indicates that he wasn't going for nuance, he was going for a "gotcha" moment that would play in the highlights. He got that, but not the way he wanted it.

I hard disagree with the narrative that Castro brought up Biden's age in anything remotely resembling an inappropriate way.


And my point is that whether that was his intention or not, that narrative was an entirely foreseeable result of the words he chose.

He made a bad call trying to score a cheap point, and it's infuriating because that's what people are talking about instead of any of his actual substantive points or, for that matter, anybody else's criticisms of Biden. (And, not for nothin', while I absolutely prefer Castro to Biden, there's not nearly as much daylight between his healthcare plan and Biden's as he's implying. His plan and Biden's both amount to "remember when the ACA was going to have a public option? Let's do that." Which, hey, would be an improvement, and may even be the attainable goal that M4A candidates like Sanders would settle for as a compromise when faced with realpolitik, but the difference between Biden's opt-in and Castro's opt-out isn't as dramatic as the latter says it is.)

And yeah, I'm annoyed at the media for fixating on this bullshit. And infuriated with the Democratic candidates who are going along with it. But that's not incompatible with saying Castro fucked up. I like him as a candidate, I still think he'd be an excellent choice for VP (probably the best), but I don't think this is an instance where he was making substantive criticism and was taken out of context. I think he was going for a viral moment and he whiffed it.

But I also think I've already spent more time talking about it than it deserves. You're right that shit like this really shouldn't matter.

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beatbandito
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby beatbandito » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:28 pm

FWIW I rewatched the clip and the first time around their "no u" back and forth felt about 20000x longer than it actually was.
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Brentai
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Brentai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:35 pm

It's hard not to buy into the "Good is dumb" narrative when the self-assumed good guys decide to hold a Say the Least Amount of Stupid Things competition amongst themselves and Joe Biden wins.
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Brentai » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 pm

You fucks would lose an arm wrestling contest to a Jenga tower.
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Thad » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:53 pm

Brentai wrote:It's hard not to buy into the "Good is dumb" narrative when the self-assumed good guys decide to hold a Say the Least Amount of Stupid Things competition amongst themselves and Joe Biden wins.


Eh, let's not get carried away; Biden's most memorable moment was when he referred to Sanders as "the president".

There's only one post-debate poll on RealClearPolitics so far (Politico/Morning Consult), and it doesn't show any significant movement (Warren up 2 points, O'Rourke and Klobuchar each up a point, everyone else either unchanged or down a point). It's a little early to call this a wash, but if this poll is any indication, then Biden only won the debate in the sense that he didn't blow the lead he already had.

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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Upthorn » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:22 pm

I guess the point I'm trying to make is... if anything Castro said prevents us from talking about the important issue of Joe Biden's cognitive decline in a meaningful way, the fault is with the media, not Castro.

Thad wrote:
Brentai wrote:It's hard not to buy into the "Good is dumb" narrative when the self-assumed good guys decide to hold a Say the Least Amount of Stupid Things competition amongst themselves and Joe Biden wins.


Eh, let's not get carried away; Biden's most memorable moment was when he referred to Sanders as "the president".


And his second most memorable moment was when he responded to a question about "how should we address the legacy of slavery" and he replied with "send social workers into homes to teach people how to raise their children" and "leave the record player on at night so children can hear words before school starts"
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Büge » Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:03 pm

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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby Blossom » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:41 am

Upthorn wrote:I guess the point I'm trying to make is... if anything Castro said prevents us from talking about the important issue of Joe Biden's cognitive decline in a meaningful way, the fault is with the media, not Castro.

Thad wrote:
Brentai wrote:It's hard not to buy into the "Good is dumb" narrative when the self-assumed good guys decide to hold a Say the Least Amount of Stupid Things competition amongst themselves and Joe Biden wins.


Eh, let's not get carried away; Biden's most memorable moment was when he referred to Sanders as "the president".


And his second most memorable moment was when he responded to a question about "how should we address the legacy of slavery" and he replied with "send social workers into homes to teach people how to raise their children" and "leave the record player on at night so children can hear words before school starts"


If not that, it was when all his teeth fell out, but let's be honest. Biden calling Sanders "the President" isn't getting storms of angry columns pointing out how his shitty, paternalistic racism was debunked decades ago, but the word gap stuff he closed with definitely is.
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Re: Hot Tweets Cool Treats

Postby beatbandito » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:53 am

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