A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

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Mongrel
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:02 am

The Inquisition has been caricatured. I mean, it was far more defensible than modern-day cancel culture is, especially the cancel campaigns waged by trans activists.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:46 pm

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If you think the word, you lose the game!
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby mharr » Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:09 pm

I'll take things that AREN'T FUCKING BINARY for 500 please Alex.

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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Joxam » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:40 pm

Mongrel wrote:Image

If you think the word, you lose the game!

As a general principle, I feel like this guy wants to say the N word.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:53 pm

Joxam wrote:
Mongrel wrote:Image

If you think the word, you lose the game!

As a general principle, I feel like this guy wants to say the N word.

We must be psychics, huh Jox :D
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Yoji » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:12 am

Maybe we should set aside one day and time for white people who really, truly, desperately want to say the N Word.

Like, on the fifth new moon of the year, between 8 and 9pm. You are allowed to say the Word under the following circumstances:
- your face is pressed into a pillow
- you are in your own bedroom
- you are under your bedsheets
- all the lights in your house are shut off
- you have observed daytime fasting and abstained from vices
- you have walked backwards to the nearest mailbox that day while grunting like a pig

The Word can be said no more than five times in this manner. And if anyone hears you say it, you must choose a punishment:
- cook or clean for a minority neighbor
- read the entirety of Martin Luther King's I Have a Dream speech (not just the one line) at the nearest courthouse
- a minority neighbor gets to pull 1d100 hairs from your head before a crowd of no less than 20 people
Failure to comply within three days will result in community service, chosen by a dachshund eating a sausage with the option written on it, and will continue until you choose your punishment.

And if all this strikes you as cruel and unusual... well, so is oppressing black people just because they look different.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:39 am

That, or be Quentin Tarantino.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby beatbandito » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:08 am

Give white people an actual n-word pass for $50k a year that goes directly to poc communities.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Joxam » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:01 am

The secret is they have always been able to say it, but in the last fifty or so years there has been a marked uptick in catching hands if they do, and that is just unfathomable.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Friday » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:13 am

yeah really we should stop saying they can't say it and instead respond with "sure but people, including me right now, will punch you in the face"

then when they say "nooooo what i mean is i want to be able to say it without getting punched in the face" we can be like "oh! you should have said that earlier! sure, that's fine! We can also use bats or retractable forum splitting batons or cans of tea whatever you want don't worry we are open to compromise"
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby KingRoyal » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:16 am

While we're on the subject,
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:07 pm

I've said it under my breath while singing songs I enjoy, (which some artists do consider inappropriate!). But never in public or to other people, much less in anger.

As with most uses of N-----, context matters. If a word has such power over you that you can't even let it leave your lips under any circumstances, you've moved from language to magical thinking. It may be a word of power, but not in the D&D sense.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Upthorn » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:47 pm

Mongrel wrote:As with most uses of N-----, context matters. If a word has such power over you that you can't even let it leave your lips under any circumstances, you've moved from language to magical thinking.


I was raised in a household that highly valued freedom of speech, in the old-school progressive way that viewed any form of censorship as a slippery slope to the loss of people's rights to freely criticize power structures, so I understand where you're coming from. However, I want to share a couple of important concepts I've learned since those days.

1: The specific word in question is extremely hurtful to a large group of unprivileged people, in a way that few other words can compare to. (I can only think of F----t , G----, and K--- off the top of my head).

2: The only context in which it feels acceptable to use words these hurtful, is in a genuine expression of solidarity with those who are hurt by them.
2A: In order for use of a slur to qualify as a genuine expression of solidarity, it must be immediately and incontrovertibly understood as such by those with whom such solidarity is being expressed.
2B: In order for use of a slur to qualify as a genuine expression of solidarity, it must be genuine solidarity, which is a different thing from general support. Namely, solidarity is horizontal -- that is, solidarity must come from a similar, if not exactly equivalent, situation of disempowerment. Which, when we are talking about racially-based disempowerment, is extremely rare to occur outside of people of that same race.

3: Habits are extremely strong influences on behavior, and are often completely insensitive to context. The surest way to ensure you'll never use a hurtful word in a context where it will be hurtful to others, is to ensure that you never form a habit of using the word in any context.

For me, these three(-ish) concepts synthesize into a general prohibition: if the N word doesn't describe you, you shouldn't use it. Even in private.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:52 pm

Upthorn wrote:
Mongrel wrote:As with most uses of N-----, context matters. If a word has such power over you that you can't even let it leave your lips under any circumstances, you've moved from language to magical thinking.


I was raised in a household that highly valued freedom of speech, in the old-school progressive way that viewed any form of censorship as a slippery slope to the loss of people's rights to freely criticize power structures, so I understand where you're coming from. However, I want to share a couple of important concepts I've learned since those days.

1: The specific word in question is extremely hurtful to a large group of unprivileged people, in a way that few other words can compare to. (I can only think of F----t , G----, and K--- off the top of my head).

2: The only context in which it feels acceptable to use words these hurtful, is in a genuine expression of solidarity with those who are hurt by them.
2A: In order for use of a slur to qualify as a genuine expression of solidarity, it must be immediately and incontrovertibly understood as such by those with whom such solidarity is being expressed.
2B: In order for use of a slur to qualify as a genuine expression of solidarity, it must be genuine solidarity, which is a different thing from general support. Namely, solidarity is horizontal -- that is, solidarity must come from a similar, if not exactly equivalent, situation of disempowerment. Which, when we are talking about racially-based disempowerment, is extremely rare to occur outside of people of that same race.

3: Habits are extremely strong influences on behavior, and are often completely insensitive to context. The surest way to ensure you'll never use a hurtful word in a context where it will be hurtful to others, is to ensure that you never form a habit of using the word in any context.

For me, these three(-ish) concepts synthesize into a general prohibition: if the N word doesn't describe you, you shouldn't use it. Even in private.


I'll preface this by saying that I already agree with habit-forming being important, as well as everything you've said about contextual usage. That's all baseline stuff.

I'm admitting this because, well, I don't feel like lying about that to you guys, even by omission.

I don't feel the solidarity questions come into play because I never use the word to anyone; I'm just privately repeating a lyric in someone else's work. If I ever sing along (and we're talking like, as a near-whisper... not full-throated stuff anyone might hear), I don't see myself as breaking some kind of censorship or making a statement. I'm not entitled to use it openly, or in other contexts, not even if I was at a concert (unless explicitly encouraged by the artist). That's not appropriate. Nor would I ever encourage someone else to use the word.

If anyone else feels they have to completely abstain to build good habits, I would say you know yourself better than I do. I do things like stop at stop signs in the middle of nowhere for similar reasons; so I do grok that reasoning.

So far I haven't felt like I am enabling or risking a bad habit. I have an incredibly foul mouth and can go full bore when tantruming, and I sometimes return to other inexcusable words I used when I was younger, which is something I really need to excise from my vocab. But I have never reached for the N word.

As for the appropriateness of singing along, even in private, that exact situation (and even broader use) has been debated among artists of colour for years and as far as I've observed the answer is legitimately unclear. What I do know is that it's not my place to participate in that argument and that it's people of colour who will decide a consensus - not me - if there ever is one. If any artists have explicitly stated "white folks should not sing along with me, even in private", then I do respect that artist's wishes, but few go that far (TBF few even get asked that question).
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Upthorn » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:18 pm

To be clear, I wasn't trying to attack you or say you were wrong for doing anything you said you do. I'm not trying to police your thoughts or anything you do in your own private time that doesn't affect other people.

I was just disagreeing with the specific statement
Mongrel wrote:If a word has such power over you that you can't even let it leave your lips under any circumstances, you've moved from language to magical thinking.
and trying to provide my reasoning for doing so, in case it might be useful information for you or others.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:33 pm

Upthorn wrote:To be clear, I wasn't trying to attack you or say you were wrong for doing anything you said you do. I'm not trying to police your thoughts or anything you do in your own private time that doesn't affect other people.

I was just disagreeing with the specific statement
Mongrel wrote:If a word has such power over you that you can't even let it leave your lips under any circumstances, you've moved from language to magical thinking.
and trying to provide my reasoning for doing so, in case it might be useful information for you or others.

Fair enough. As you say it depends on how you feel about the possibility of habit-forming and I would add how artists feel about how their work is consumed or enjoyed.

I don't think you're policing or attacking me either. I don't think I have have some kind of unassailable "free pass" just because this is all in private. I'm legit open to any of our (sadly very few) PoC's wanting to talk with me about this because they disagree with me and are upset by my described usage.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm

FWIW, the best ready-made primer I've ever seen on the subject of "why can't white folks say N-----" is Tah-Nensi Coates'



It's great because he doesn't just go through the basics of contextual usage in context in a clear, relatable, concise, and even funny way way - which he does! - but he also flips the question at the end to explain that for white folks to not be able to go around and say N----- is a tiny taste of what it is to be black in America, where not being able to do things is the predominant experience.

I'd like to think everyone here understands context [GUILD JOKE HERE], but it's a very very shareable video if you run into some clueless folks who might be able to be swayed.
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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Mongrel » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:10 pm

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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby Silversong » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:25 am

Mongrel wrote:FWIW, the best ready-made primer I've ever seen on the subject of "why can't white folks say N-----" is Tah-Nensi Coates'


I worked on a lecture event once for Coates, and was incredibly impressed by him and how he handled people. I should really read his stuff.

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Re: A take so hot I think I got singed reading it.

Postby KingRoyal » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:29 am

Mongrel wrote:Image


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