Rooty-tooty point and shootys

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Mongrel
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Thu Jul 14, 2022 8:56 pm

At the end of the day we're watching people argue over slivers of scraps and clutching at straws because the Republicans have run the table.

Unless and until the GOP dies, the chances of doing *ANYTHING* remain dismal. They are the elephant, and they are in every room in the US.
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Grath
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:24 pm

I could've sworn I wrote this reply earlier today but it's not there anymore, so...
KingRoyal wrote:Sure then, ban specific models. Whatever makes you happy. Just make sure manufacturers federally can't make certain weapons or specific features, and that retailers can't sell them either. Or if you prefer, why don't you help on this one? You said you support gun control, help me understand what it would take to keep magazine sizes small and for weapons to not be able to kill 19 children in about a minute

Assault weapon bans and magazine capacity limits have no observable effect on homicide or suicide rates. The only thing I can think of that might move the needle would be attempting to ban all semi-auto guns, which would probably not even make it to SCOTUS before being thrown out as unconstitutional.

KingRoyal wrote:And you repeatedly ignore that women are victims of gun violence as targets of domestic violence, which isn't a right-wing terrorism issue.

Allow me to point to this post, which is (at least on my viewing settings) literally on the same page:
Grath wrote:Also just to be clear, I'm not saying that all gun control is bad and useless - actually taking domestic violence seriously and closing loopholes around it would disarm most to all mass shooters (and 40+% of cops, if you can also address the Blue Wall of Silence), while not substantially impacting law-abiding citizens.


KingRoyal wrote:In what America is fixing income inequality actually more feasible than gun control? Remember, the last president to actually sign gun control legislation gutted welfare, and it's been drastic cuts to all services since then. Not only does it seem unlikely that any meaningful changes to income equality would be passed under this regime, even if some did make their way through, it would take years before such societal change would be felt.

In the meantime, buying back guns, restricting the manufacturer and sale of new ones, restricting and accounting for ammo, and proper background checks and waiting periods would do a lot to reduce gun violence. It's effective in other countries, it'll work here

In the America where welfare is not unconstitutional but restricting access to "firearms in common use" for law-abiding citizens is unconstitutional. I wouldn't bet against SCOTUS ruling that ammo restrictions are unconstitutional given the precedents in DC v. Heller and NYSRPA v. Bruen. (Proper/universal background checks are another thing that's fine, is constitutional, and has an observable negative correlation with firearm homicides.)

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:54 am



Yeah, state level gun control doesn't work which is why I advocate federal level gun control, which is effective. Countries that banned semi-auto and automatic significantly reduced gun violence. Hell, let's look at the Swiss, who have the loosest gun control in Europe and also one of the highest rates of gun violence among the EU.

In the America where welfare is not unconstitutional but restricting access to "firearms in common use" for law-abiding citizens is unconstitutional. I wouldn't bet against SCOTUS ruling that ammo restrictions are unconstitutional given the precedents in DC v. Heller and NYSRPA v. Bruen. (Proper/universal background checks are another thing that's fine, is constitutional, and has an observable negative correlation with firearm homicides.)


This SCOTUS also just overruled Roe v Wade so I've stopped using them as a gauge for what I think is politically possible. We have to act like a better world is possible and we have to do it all the time.

At the end of the day, effective gun control helps reduce gun violence while still allowing citizens to own and use guns for recreation, self-defense or to hunt. Gun control won't end violence or the desire by people to commit violence, it'll just make violence harder to do
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:40 am

5 dead, 18 injured in mass shooting at Colorado Springs LGBTQ Club

This is the 10th mass shooting in the United States this week
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Sun Nov 20, 2022 2:14 pm

The Riddler wrote:This is the 10th mass shooting in the United States this week

Well yeah, it's only Sunday.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:29 pm

Once again, a violent extremist that was known to law enforcement, but they didn't bother doing anything about him or taking his guns away after he had an armed standoff with SWAT last year.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:55 pm

Of the other 9, was a shootout between drug smugglers and border patrol, and the other 8 were arguments or DV situations that escalated with the assistance of guns
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Grath
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:14 pm

... So now we know why they didn't take away his guns, grandpa pulled some strings and the felony charges vanished.

As is often the case, we had the means and opportunity to prevent this but ACAB intervened. Remind me how passing new laws is going to solve anything when the same police are going to be enforcing them exclusively against BIPOC?

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:41 pm

So is your meaning that we shouldn't do anything because in this instance a GOP rep pulled some strings to flout the law?
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby hngkong » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:06 pm

I might be reading it wrong, and I'm not trying to put words in Grath's mouth, but I think what's being said is essentially we cannot legislate a fix, because all cops are bad.
Like I mention every time Robocop is mentioned, the only good cop is a dead cop, because if they try to be a good cop, they end up dead: https://www.npr.org/2022/10/08/11275801 ... th-lawsuit

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:10 pm

Federal gun buybacks, a ban on the manufacture and sale of AR=15s or other similar high capacity, semi-auto rifles, a ban on the manufacture and sale of several types of mods, an end to the gun show loopholes, more stringent background checks, red flag laws, bans for domestic violence, etc

I just don't buy that nothing can be done just because cops are bad
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:09 am

The Riddler wrote:So is your meaning that we shouldn't do anything because in this instance a GOP rep pulled some strings to flout the law?

My point is that the laws are, and will be for the foreseeable future, applied in a thoroughly inequal manner; so maybe instead of passing laws that will only be used to disarm queer/trans/minority communities (see: Tenacious Unicorn Ranch being harassed by their local police department, versus widespread non-compliance with NY-SAFE to the point that people are publicly using illegal "assault weapons" at a county parks department run range that has a reserved area for police officers to train in), let's pass laws that will at least more directly target the problems (stricter penalties for domestic violence/threats against women might have prevented Pulse, Vegas, Dayton, and now Colorado Springs; they also wouldn't harm otherwise-innocent minorities in the process.)

The Riddler wrote:Federal gun buybacks,

It's unlikely that anyone with nefarious intent would attend one of these, and they're free profit for people who manufacture a pile of what are legally firearms to turn in to a buyback; someone made $21,000 off New York's buybacks until they changed the rules to exclude "spooky ghost guns that cost less than what the buyback pays". (You can make a shotgun out of $20 worth of pipe/nails/glue from a hardware store; the person in question was at least 3D printing Glocks.)
The Riddler wrote:a ban on the manufacture and sale of AR=15s or other similar high capacity, semi-auto rifles

This would be either pointless in the former ("assault weapon" bans have no correlation with reduced firearm mortality, and probably violate DC v. Heller and/or NYSRPA v. Bruen but cases there haven't been appealed back to SCOTUS yet) or unconstitutional for the next several decades in the latter (full semi-auto ban directly violates DC v. Heller, and you're looking at 40-ish more years for SCOTUS to go back and change their minds if Roe v Wade -> Dobbs is typical.)
The Riddler wrote:a ban on the manufacture and sale of several types of mods,

The ones that actually functionally matter are already being banned by the ATF, the ones that don't... don't.
The Riddler wrote:an end to the gun show loopholes, more stringent background checks,

Sure, we need a better/more robust background check system that is also somehow accessible to the public. (Also the 'gun show loophole' is less of a thing than you think it is; a lot of these murderers just conventionally passed background checks, and eventually the worst abusers of the 'gun show loophole' catch the attention of the ATF and get told politely but firmly that you need a Federal Firearms License to be in the business of dealing firearms, which comes with a requirement to do background checks.)
The Riddler wrote:red flag laws,

Most of the existing red flag laws tend to be remarkable invasions of privacy (NY requires you to allow them to review every social media account you've had for the past three years now, which might just be a first amendment violation) and/or easily abusable with no due process; I'd like to see those issues worked out before a nationwide rollout.
The Riddler wrote:bans for domestic violence,

Enacting a ban on firearm ownership for those convicted of any violent crime is the only law that actually correlated with an observable reduction in firearm homicides in a US-wide study, and the majority of the spree-type shootings have been preceded by a history of domestic violence and misogyny.

The Riddler wrote:etc

The other popular one you didn't mention yet: Waiting periods are probably reasonable for the first firearm to prevent crimes of passion, IIRC a 48-hour wait is the optimal balance between "can't buy a gun while angry" and "can still buy a gun relatively quickly if you really need one, like someone's threatening your life and you know the police won't do shit for you", but ideally you wouldn't need a waiting period for subsequent purchases because that's not really changing access.

I would also just note that to my knowledge every drag brunch that's been guarded by armed and armored Antifa types has gone off without a hitch with the alt-right protesters too scared to actually get close, much less harass the venue or attendees.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:59 am

Mass shooting in a Chesapeake, Virginia Walmart, potentially ten fatalities

Third mass shooting since Colorado Springs, 2 days ago
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby The Riddler » Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:04 pm

Three dead in overnight shooting in Yakima, Washington

This is on the heels of the shootings Montery Park and Oakland and Half Moon City in California, two in Baton Rouge and Shreveport, Louisiana, another in Chicago, Illinois and one in Dodge City, Kansas among others. Nearly 40 mass shootings on this, the 25th day of 2023
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:38 pm

I'm more surprised when a US shooting actually still makes the news. In ghoulish reflection of the nightmare. I see a 'dozen dead in [state][location] shooting' and think "Hm, slow news day down south?"
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Yoji » Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:47 pm

I'm not sure which tallies it may or may not count towards, but I was stunned to find out that six people- including an infant and teen mom- were shot dead on the other side of the town where my mom lives. Like, within a half hour and sixteen miles.

Didn't hear a peep about it in the news. I only knew about it after hearing there had been 33 mass shootings at the moment, then bounced over to the Gun Violence Archive and saw it listed in a place I recognized.
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