Our Boys In Blue

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Friday
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Friday » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:17 pm

Thad wrote:Roxane Gay:

My goodness. 270 months in prison for Derek Chauvin, can never own firearms again, must register as a predatory offender upon release. George Floyd is still dead.

It's just a conflicted emotional response in that it's rare for a police officer to receive this kind of sentence but I don't know that there is a satisfying or acceptable sentence for this kind of crime.


We talked about it a bit in #ff, when someone mentioned it didn't seem like it's enough.

I personally have always held that anything past 25 years is wrong, unless you think they're a totally irredeemable threat to society, in which case you just give them Life so they can't hurt anyone else ever again.

So the question is, do you think Derek Chauvin is a totally irredeemable threat to society? All answers valid.

Anyway, the reason it's hollow is because one person going to jail isn't "justice" because the fucking entire police force and the systems that prop it up is corrupt to the fucking core. "Justice" is a complete rebuilding of what our understanding of what a cop is and what they are allowed to do and when they are called and for what reasons they are called. It's the creation of a bunch more departments to handle specific things, like mental health crisis. Just like how EMTs were created to do medical stuff. Before that cops did it. And sucked at it. Especially with medical calls from black neighborhoods. Which is why black people created the first EMTs, and they worked so well that white people copied them because it turns out (duh) that sending a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL TO A MEDICAL EMERGENCY IS GOING TO WORK A LOT BETTER IN TERMS OF OUTCOMES THAN A RACIST, UNTRAINED THUG WITH A GUN. JUST LIKE SENDING A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL TO A MENTAL HEALTH EMERGENCY IS GOING TO WORK A LOT BETTER IN TERMS OF OUTCOMES THAN A RACIST, UNTRAINED THUG WITH A GUN.
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Friday
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Friday » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:21 pm

Imagine going back to having no ambulances and just sending the cops to whatever heart attack or stroke or whatever. That is how insane what we are doing right now for mental health is.

And all this is just a drop in the ocean of what's wrong with cops and how they are run. Racism, military gear, excessive force (which is why they also kill white people far more than they should) cop unions, "good" cops not reporting their own, the disdain they have for civilians, the way our culture absolutely worships them and idolizes them, and more.

So yeah one guy going to prison?

"It's a start, I guess" is about as good as it gets.
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François
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby François » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:51 pm

I read the judge's... what's it called, sentencing memo? I found it notable because the fact that Chauvin was a police officer actually contributed to his sentence, which is how it should be at least. The prosecution argued four aggravating circumstances, and two of them were taken into account: Chauvin's position of authority, and the cruelty of his crime. Those justified an increase from the base of 150 months for someone with Chauvin's history to the final sentence of 270 months.

(The other two were that children were present and that the crime was committed by multiple individuals. It was found that the minors were not showing signs of having been injured or traumatized, and that the onerous task trying to figure out whether the other officers involved were participating in the crime was moot to this particular case since the other aggravating circumstances already justified the extra 120 months.)

I presume there's no mention of the whole thing being a hate crime because that would be hard to prove, but maybe it's not a thing in Minneapolis, I don't know.

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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Niku » Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:58 pm

Friday wrote:I personally have always held that anything past 25 years is wrong, unless you think they're a totally irredeemable threat to society, in which case you just give them Life so they can't hurt anyone else ever again.


he's a cop

Friday wrote:So the question is, do you think Derek Chauvin is a totally irredeemable threat to society? All answers valid.


he's a cop
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Thad
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Thad » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:30 pm

Friday wrote:We talked about it a bit in #ff, when someone mentioned it didn't seem like it's enough.

I personally have always held that anything past 25 years is wrong, unless you think they're a totally irredeemable threat to society, in which case you just give them Life so they can't hurt anyone else ever again.


It's a complicated question and involves a lot of implicit assumptions. Questions like what the point of prison and, indeed, criminal justice is, and whether we're evaluating guys like Chauvin in comparison to some idealized scenario, or in comparison to other criminals within the context of the system we've got.

So the question is, do you think Derek Chauvin is a totally irredeemable threat to society? All answers valid.


Everybody loves a good redemption story, and I'm no exception, but the older I get the more I see "redemption" as just that: a storytelling device. I'm not sure such a thing exists in real life.

There's no cosmic scale. Good deeds don't balance out the bad. If you murder somebody, but also save somebody from being murdered, those two things don't cancel each other out. You did both.

So is Chauvin irredeemable? Yeah. Yeah, I think he is. He kneeled on a man's neck until he died. All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten this li'l hand.

The best he can ever do is try to be better. I do believe that even the worst criminals are capable of that (or at least that we should behave as if they are). But so far Chauvin hasn't shown any interest in it. He hasn't shown any remorse or contrition. Now he's talking about how he has secret evidence that will clear his name. I think that behavior is part of the story, part of what people think about when they ask whether or not a given sentence is just.

As for whether or not he'll always be a threat? We can't know that for sure, but there are a few factors we can consider. Not allowing him to carry a gun is a good start. And assuming he serves out his full sentence (so far -- keep in mind there are still federal charges to come), he'll be 67 when he gets out. Statistically, people that age don't commit murders. Is his sentence long enough that by the time he gets out, he won't be a threat anymore? Yeah, probably.

As for deterrence? Nah. It's important for Chauvin to face accountability for his crimes, but we're still a long fucking way from police officers thinking twice before they murder Black men. If it's a question of whether this will be a lesson to other LEOs? If they take a lesson away from this, it's gonna be "make sure nobody's recording." And probably not even that.

If the question is how does his sentence stack up against other criminals'? He's not getting the max, he's not getting what the prosecutors asked for, but he's getting more than the recommended sentencing guideline, and the judge made it clear that the egregious nature of the crime played into that decision. Evaluated within the context of what other criminals get for the same offense, I think Chauvin's sentence is probably a reasonable one -- he got more than somebody else would have, and what he did and what his job description is both played into that decision.

If the question is what purpose do prisons even serve -- woof. Prisons are like the police; I'm convinced at this point that the only way they can be reformed effectively is to tear them down entirely and start over. Any questions about whether anybody should be in prison carry a pretty heavy set of implications and caveats. I do think we need a place we can put violent criminals that will prevent them from doing more harm, and prisons are what we've got. So yes, given that set of parameters, Chauvin belongs in prison. But the prison system we've got is not remotely the one we should have.

And, of course, on top of all that, we're domesticated plains apes and we've got a powerful instinct toward tit-for-tat. Derek Chauvin murdered a man. It's hard to see any sentence as commensurate with that crime. But I think that, while that's a perfectly understandable way to think, it's a wrong one, and indeed its one whose logical conclusion empowers the very system of oppression that Chauvin represents. When people start pushing for harsher sentences, that usually doesn't end up hurting people like Derek Chauvin. It usually ends up hurting people like George Floyd.

So, all those things taken together? Looking at this particular crime, at this particular moment, in this particular system? I think that the sentence is reasonable. It's probably going to prevent Chauvin from hurting anybody else (in the sense of direct physical violence).

But that's also cold fucking comfort. George Floyd is still dead. And so are Freddie Gray, Eric Garner, Sandra Bland, and so many others. And there are going to be more. The real question isn't whether Chauvin is an irredeemable threat to society. It's whether the police are. And the question is rhetorical.

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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby mharr » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:53 am

I'm stuck on the 'condolences' part. Offering sympathy for the thing you personally did is pure mafia bullshit, calculated to amplify your victims' horror. It should be added to the charge sheet.

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Friday
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Friday » Sat Jun 26, 2021 12:45 pm

For the record, I wanted him to get Life. He knew what he was doing, and he did it in cold blood and on purpose as George begged for his life. That is some serious fucked up psychopathic shit.

The real question isn't whether Chauvin is an irredeemable threat to society. It's whether the police are. And the question is rhetorical.


This.

If the question is what purpose do prisons even serve -- woof. Prisons are like the police; I'm convinced at this point that the only way they can be reformed effectively is to tear them down entirely and start over.


Also this. Private, for-profit prisons are literally just state slavery. Harsher penalties and incarceration rates for black people are how slavery has survived in this country, with a few extra steps.

"How does Wal-Mart beat everyone else's prices?!" is a question that has a detailed answer, but the simple version is "Slavery" but it's pronounced "Prison Labor."
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Thad
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Thad » Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:16 pm

Friday wrote:Private, for-profit prisons are literally just state slavery.

And the state-run ones ain't exactly great either.

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Mongrel
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:28 pm

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Büge
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Büge » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:34 pm

Yep. Kylie did a whole twitter thread on the Game Truck.
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:45 pm

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Friday
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Friday » Fri Jul 16, 2021 7:02 pm

Portland Police use photoshop to alter a suspect's picture in order to get bank tellers to identify him as the man who robbed them

The dicey behavior began when Portland cops investigating a series of bank robberies felt they knew the perpetrator’s identity: Tyrone Lamont Allen, a 50-year-old whose face is covered by several prominent tattoos.

But there was a problem. None of the bank tellers had noted seeing any face tattoos on the robber. And no tattoos were visible in recovered surveillance footage.

Rather than looking for other suspects, or even proceeding with a photo lineup knowing that the tellers were unlikely to positively identify Allen, the police officers turned to a piece of software to solve their problem.

“They covered up every one of his tattoos using Photoshop,” The Oregonian’s Maxine Bernstein wrote. “Police then presented the altered image of Allen with photos of five similar-looking men to the tellers for identification. They didn’t tell anyone that they’d changed Allen’s photo. Some of the tellers picked out Allen.”

There’s more. The cops in question did not know that they were doing anything wrong. Neither did the local U.S. attorney. Indeed, they still stand by their actions. The Oregonian quoted a police forensic criminalist, Mark Weber, as testifying, “I basically painted over the tattoos. Almost like applying electronic makeup.’’
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby atog » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:32 pm

Next up: "We sawed off his feet/put him on the rack to fit the bank securicam ruler shot"
Placeholder for something witty that doesn't make me sound like an asshole

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mharr
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby mharr » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:05 am

"Dicey"

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Friday
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Friday » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:03 am

"perhaps not entirely forthright or on the level, slightly maybe not in accordance with morality or fairness, imaginable that it would not 100% be considered honorable, Jesus would maybe have a problem with it, if asked"
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mharr
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby mharr » Sat Jul 17, 2021 2:25 pm

Five glorious decades of lessons and I still can't fit it in my head that this language fuckery works on people.

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Brentai
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Brentai » Mon Jul 19, 2021 2:26 pm

Who gives a fuck about people? It just needs to work on donors.
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Mongrel
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Mongrel » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:29 pm

I mean, we all knew this, but it's something to see the victim got a payout at least (and official confirmation, I guess, for whatever that's worth). Too bad the cash won't come from the FOoP's budget though.



EDIT: Oh, the law firm is also suing the FOoP too! Good!
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Friday
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Friday » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:43 pm

god i fucking hate cops
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Thad
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Re: Our Boys In Blue

Postby Thad » Wed Oct 06, 2021 12:47 am


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