The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

User avatar
Blossom
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Blossom » Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:12 pm

KingRoyal wrote:
Thad wrote:...There's kind of this trend I've seen over the last year or two where no matter how many Democrats support/don't support a given thing, some people insist that they believe exactly the opposite of how they've overwhelmingly voted.

And I don't mean to pick on you or any single person; I've seen it from multiple people. Somebody says "every single Democrat is going to vote to confirm Barrett." The vote happens. I point out that the actual number is zero. And then people are like "Yeah, well, they didn't stop it, either." Like being literally 100% wrong is not even a speed bump to the narrative.

If you say that your opinion is based on a particular factual claim, and the factual claim turns out to be false, and your opinion is unchanged, then your opinion wasn't really based on that claim.

42 Democrats voted for the minimum wage amendment; 8 opposed. (If you don't want to count independents as Democrats, then the numbers are 41 and 7.) Your takeaway is that the 5:1 majority didn't really support it, they only pretended to because they knew it wasn't going to pass. That...really doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense. It sounds an awful lot like you're starting at your conclusion and working backwards to justify it rather than starting with evidence and basing your conclusion on it.


My factual claim is that Democrats control the senate and are they and the ones who caucus with them voted it down. Democrats can say they they support it, but their as a party they routinely demonstrate that they do not. If they want to give the impression that they actually support something, they need to do something other than repeatedly not-passing it to get me to believe that.


It is awfully weird how every time the Democrats control both houses, there's somehow one or two conservative dems to stall all the good progress that the party really does want to do, genuine, honest, and that's just how it happens to work.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:52 pm

I'm frankly a little surprised that Manchin is talking filibuster reform this quickly. I always thought that if he supported it, it would be some kind of hedge like bringing back the standing filibuster so he could say he didn't vote to eliminate it. But I thought we were probably at least six months out from him even suggesting it.

Talk is cheap, and just because he's teasing that he might do it doesn't mean that he will do it. And the best-case scenario, even with filibuster reform, is still...Joe Manchin as a make-or-break vote, who gets to hold legislation hostage for the sake of his ego. It's not like it's gonna be the promised land or anything.

But getting a new Voting Rights Act passed is vitally important right now. If we can do that, it's not going to solve all our problems right away, but it's going to be key to the long-term health of our democracy.

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:54 pm


User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:36 pm

Tax Policy Center: Pandemic Bill Would Cut Taxes by An Average of $3,000, With Most Relief Going to Low- And Middle-Income Households

Image

The bill is not as good as it could have been, partly due to fuckery by Manchin, Sinema, and the other six Democrats who scuttled the minimum wage increase. But it's still a lot more good than bad, and the talking point that Biden's giving people less money than Trump did is misleading at best.

User avatar
Blossom
Posts: 2297
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:58 pm

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Blossom » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:14 pm



They also emptied all the state party's accounts, sending that money to consultants and the DNC.
Image

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21333
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Mongrel » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:02 pm

Meanwhile...

It turns out that the Twitter-famous liberal leftie/Bernie basher known as "Brooklyn Dad" is being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by Democratic PACs and health insurance companies.


Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:58 pm

Eric Levitz, New York Magazine: Biden’s COVID-Relief Bill Is a Big F**king Deal

I found the first few paragraphs obnoxious, but this is a good summary of what's in the bill (links and formatting stripped by copy-paste; you're probably better off clicking the link):

The Democratic Party’s approach to legislative strategy has fundamentally changed.
To appreciate the concrete significance of the ARP for ordinary Americans — and, by extension, the significance of having 50 Democratic votes in the Senate versus 49 — here are a few of the ways life in the U.S. is about to change as a result of a unified Democratic government coming to power:

• The average household in the bottom quintile of America’s economic ladder will see its annual income rise by more than 20 percent.

• A family of four with one working parent and one unemployed one will have $12,460 more in government benefits to help them make ends meet.

• The poorest single mothers in America will receive at least $3,000 more per child in government support, along with $1,400 for themselves and additional funds for nutritional assistance and rental aid.

• Child poverty in the U.S. will drop by half.

• More than 1 million unionized workers who were poised to lose their pensions will now receive 100 percent of their promised retirement benefits for at least the next 30 years.

• America’s Indigenous communities will receive $31.2 billion in aid, the largest investment the federal government has ever made in the country’s Native people.

• Black farmers will receive $5 billion in recompense for a century of discrimination and dispossession, a miniature reparation that will have huge consequences for individual African-American agriculturalists, many of whom will escape from debt and retain their land as a direct result of the legislation.

• The large majority of Americans who earn less than $75,000 as individuals or less than $150,000 as couples will receive a $1,400 stimulus check for themselves and another for each child or adult dependent in their care.

• America’s child-care centers will not go into bankruptcy en masse, thanks to a $39 billion investment in the nation’s care infrastructure.

• Virtually all states and municipalities in America will exit the pandemic in better fiscal health than pre-COVID, which is to say a great many layoffs of public employees and cutbacks in public services will be averted.

• No one in the United States will have to devote more than 8.5 percent of their income to paying for health insurance for at least the next two years, while ACA plans will become premium-free for a large number of low-income workers.

• America’s unemployed will not see their federal benefits lapse this weekend and will have an extra $300 to spend every week through the first week in September.

This is a small sampling of the COVID-relief bill’s consequences (more comprehensive accounts of its provisions can be found here and here). But it is sufficient to establish that something has dramatically changed in the Democrats’ approach to wielding power.

When pundits suggested progressives had little hope of getting major reform through a 50-vote Democratic majority, their speculation was well founded. After all, when Democrats had 60 votes in 2009, they struggled for more than a year to pass a watered-down version of progressives’ health-care-reform agenda, then left the bulk of their party’s constituencies with unfulfilled IOUs.

And yet: Twelve years later, with just 50 Senate votes — including one from a state Republicans won by 40 points in November — Democrats managed to pass one of the largest fiscal programs in U.S. history within weeks of Biden’s inauguration. Obama spent the better part of his first year in office seeking bipartisan buy-in for the Affordable Care Act. Biden just slapped most of his own health-care agenda on top of a $1.9 trillion relief bill and then rammed it through Congress before his administration’s two-month anniversary.

This is how progressives have been begging their party to govern for more than a decade: Ignore the Beltway’s fetish for bipartisanship and deliver big, clear gains to the American people. The Democratic leadership has now affirmed that counsel in both word and deed. As Schumer told the Washington Post this week, “What happened in 2009 and ’10 is we tried to work with the Republicans, the package ended up being much too small, and the recession lasted for five years. People got sour; we lost the election.”


That last bit seems pretty significant. If the leadership has finally gotten it through their heads that trying to work with Republicans is a waste of time, then that seems like a big step.

OTOH, Manchin continues to be the most important vote in the Senate, and he's still talking up the importance of bringing Republicans to the table. Of course, he's also suggested that if they don't want to come to the table, he's willing to consider bringing back the standing filibuster. Nobody really knows what the hell Manchin will end up doing, and that's the way he likes it.

I think a messaging problem the Democrats haven't been able to figure out these past 12 years is, the idea of bipartisanship is popular and consistently polls well; people say they want Congress to work together and be above petty partisan squabbling. And Democrats haven't been able to wrap their head around how you can appeal to people who want to see bipartisan cooperation when the other party refuses to cooperate.

Democrats have, for a long time, been under the misapprehension that the answer to this dilemma is "just keep trying harder to get the other party onboard." It seems like they're finally realizing that the actual answer is, "pass legislation that's popular with people from both parties, and point out that the other party is refusing to support it."

I mean, that's really, really obvious, and it really shouldn't have taken them that long to suss it out. But the bar's so low that I feel like this is major progress.

Another thing I've seen: multiple Democratic politicians (Tim Ryan, Ted Lieu, Hakeem Jeffries) have recently made remarks to the effect of "We're passing legislation that helps Americans, and Republicans just want to whine about Dr. Seuss." I've seen that refrain often enough that I think it's a coordinated talking point. And I think it's a good one. Another thing that's consistently frustrated me about the Democrats is that they don't have the Republicans' skill at simple, direct messages that stick in people's minds. Some of them have tried; Alan Grayson's criticism of the Republican approach to healthcare as "Don't get sick, and if you do, die quickly" was excellent, but instead of backing him like they should have, the rest of the party tripped all over themselves shooshing him. (Jon Stewart even put that clip alongside a bunch of Fox News hyperbole in a montage for his Rally to Restore Sanity; it was a bit of bothsiderist false equivalence that still rankles today, though I still count myself as a Stewart fan.)

"Democrats are trying to get shit done, Republicans are wasting everybody's time with inconsequential bullshit that they're pretending is important" is a good message and one I'd like to see them keep hammering on.

It's still going to be a tough couple of years. Even if things break right, even if filibuster reform and voting rights pass, I still think that PR/DC statehood are a longshot. (And there are still some reasonable progressive criticisms of whether statehood is even the right call for PR.) Even if there *is* a minimum wage increase, I bet it's going to be some kind of compromise position that's not the full $15 and preserves existing loopholes allowing sub-minimum wage jobs. And I think Democrats are going to have an uphill battle keeping Congress in '22 no matter what they do, because that's just the way things usually go in midterms. But passing the voting rights bill is essential, and a new state or two would help.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21333
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Mongrel » Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:37 pm

Image

User avatar
mharr
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:54 am
Location: UK

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby mharr » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:10 pm

I wish I didn't believe that might work.

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:19 pm

Manchin's out there doing his look-at-me-look-at-me will-he-won't-he thing again.

After previously saying he wouldn't support SB1, now he's saying he'll support it with some changes. His changes are, of course, bad, but it sounds like what he's proposing might still be an improvement over what we've got now.

He supports making election day a public holiday, offering 15 consecutive days of early voting for federal elections, and automatic voter registration through state departments of motor vehicles.

He also proposes requiring voter identification, but allowing alternatives like utility bills to suffice as proof of identity.


Voter ID laws are, of course, fucking bullshit. I don't like that at all. But if it's a choice between that and just letting the states go full speed ahead with whatever voter disenfranchisement efforts they want, including voter ID laws? Man, that other stuff in there, making election day a holiday, mandatory early voting, automatic voter registration, that's stuff progressives have been pushing for for a long, long time, and if I'm gonna look at it from a coldly utilitarian perspective, I think those things will bring more voters in than voter ID laws will keep out.

Manchin's making a big show of trying to get 10 GOP senators onboard, but he's also making more noise about possibly supporting filibuster reform. As always, we don't know what side he's ultimately going to come down on, and that's the way he likes it.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21333
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Mongrel » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:17 pm

Every time Joe Manchin enters a room, the Price is Right theme song should play and a line of lobbyists should take up positions behind little contestant podiums with those dollar amount screens on them.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:06 pm

More procedural fuckery, but my read is that this is...good?

Pelosi: No Vote On Infrastructure Deal Until Dem Priorities Passed Through Reconciliation

So, as I read it:

Democrats introduce a sweeping infrastructure bill that includes priorities like climate change mitigation, childcare, paid leave, and two years of free community college.

Republicans and Look-At-Me Democrats insist on a bipartisan bill that focuses on roads and bridges and doesn't have any of that unfortunate and controversial "helping people" stuff in it.

Pelosi's like "Fine, we'll pass the bipartisan compromise bill, just as soon as you pass that other stuff we wanted through budget reconciliation."

So, assuming she sticks to her guns? The middle-of-the-roaders get their photo op and get to pat themselves on the back for their bipartisanship, but only if Manchin and Sinema play ball and pass some progressive priorities on a party-line vote.

On the one hand, it's a bunch of pointless theater and it's happening for the sole purpose of feeding the egos of a couple of senators I don't like very much. On the other, it's still probably going to lead to a positive result, which is what ultimately matters.

I'm sure that, before all's said and done, the reconciliation bill's going to be watered down to appease the Attention-Seeking Caucus. They won't pass a bill that's as comprehensive as it should be. But I'll definitely take getting some progressive priorities passed over getting no progressive priorities passed.

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:11 pm

It sounds like they've worked out the details of the reconciliation bill and it sounds like it's good news. It doesn't have everything Sanders asked for but he's still hailing it as "the most significant piece of legislation since the Great Depression," so that's encouraging.

It'll be a few weeks before the actual vote, and in the meantime there's still the bipartisan bill, which I still think is largely theater; either it passes, or Republicans torpedo it and Democrats fold it into the reconciliation bill and pass it anyway.

Somewhere along the way Manchin's going to demand concessions that make him feel important, but in the end I think it looks like they're probably going to pass a pretty good bill.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21333
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Mongrel » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:21 pm

Tabibi: The Vanishing Legacy of Barack Obama

There’s a glorious moment in the life of a certain kind of politician, when either because their careers are over, or because they’re so untouchable politically that it doesn’t matter anymore, that they finally get to remove the public mask, no pun intended. This Covid bash was Barack Obama’s “Fuck it!” moment.

He extended middle fingers in all directions: to his Vineyard neighbors, the rest of America, Biden, the hanger-on ex-staffers who’d stacked years of hundred-hour work weeks to build his ballyhooed career, the not quite A-listers bounced at the last minute for being not famous enough (sorry, Larry David and Conan O’Brien!), and so on. It’d be hard not to laugh imagining Axelrod reading that even “Real Housewife of Atlanta” Kim Fields got on the party list over him, except that Obama giving the shove-off to his most devoted (if also scummy and greedy) aides is also such a perfect metaphor for the way he slammed the door in the faces of the millions of ordinary voters who once so desperately believed in him.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:57 pm

Once-celebrated writer now best known as a serial sexual harasser and Putin stooge gonna talk shit about somebody's vanishing legacy.

User avatar
Upthorn
Posts: 1029
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:41 pm
Location: mastodon.social/@upthorn
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Upthorn » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:13 pm

They're not wrong, though
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:31 pm

It depends on whether you count signal-boosting last week's Fox News talking point as "wrong", I guess.

Taibbi's made it pretty clear over the last four years or so that he does not.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21333
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Mongrel » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:48 pm

Broken clocks, etc.
Image

User avatar
Thad
Posts: 13222
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:05 am
Location: 1611 Uranus Avenue
Contact:

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Thad » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:49 pm

Adding: It's not that I don't think Obama's party was dumb and shouldn't have happened. I think that's true.

But it's not exactly the most pressing issue of the day, and when particular pundits treat it as if it is, they're not doing that out of any legitimate concern over Obama's hypocrisy. When Taibbi and Hannity are flogging the same story -- as they do with disturbing regularity these days -- I'm less interested in what the story is than what their motives are for focusing on it.

User avatar
Mongrel
Posts: 21333
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:28 pm
Location: There's winners and there's losers // And I'm south of that line

Re: The Democrats Will Also Shit Themselves.

Postby Mongrel » Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:58 pm

Okay, that's a fair angle as well.
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests