Randomization

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Friday
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Re: Randomization

Postby Friday » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:23 pm

the joke is that at that point in the normal game, using your bare fists is far more dps than your shortsword due to that doublehit that allowed you to wreck gaibon so fast.
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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:11 pm

DPS is great, sure, but closing in to make the punch land is pretty tough (as shown in the rest of the video where I wasn't wrecking Gaibon).

And that goes doppel for Doubleganger10, with the added complication that it just straight up dodges any magic you try to cast.

I did eventually find a weapon, in the Library. Then a skellington dropped a Fury Plate as I climbed back up the Outer Wall.

Now that I have a Clear file on the memory card, I can do what I think is turning out to be a more interesting playthrough overall: a Luck Code randomizer run. But it's still a full run of a randomized relic progression in two labyrinthine castles, so the run would be several hours even with backtracking cut out. Would there be any interest in watching that sort of thing?

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Blossom
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Re: Randomization

Postby Blossom » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:06 pm

i just spent about an hour trying and failing to get a playstation emulator working in order to try this

can you like. just share what works. where to actually get.
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hngkong
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Re: Randomization

Postby hngkong » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:40 pm

I use Mednafen - https://mednafen.github.io/ - which works great but is a huge pain in the butt to setup at the start. I think this was the tutorial I used: https://www.fantasyanime.com/emuhelp/mednafen

I've also never had no weapons by that point, but I've had the Cube of Zoe be the very last relic I found. I've also gotten the Crissaegrim as one of my first weapons, which made that run a joke.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:50 pm

Oh, uh, I set up ePsxe so long ago I don't remember how I did it, just that it was a pain in the ass. There's a BIOS file you have to get separate from the emulator itself, and put in the right directory and so on.

It's still kind of wonky, I have to go look at my controller settings every time I boot it up. I don't have to change anything, since it's all there when I do look. But if I don't confirm, the controller doesn't work.

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mharr
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Re: Randomization

Postby mharr » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:06 am

Fist McBones is the same guy in like every fantasy universe ever, so the continuity is nice. I especially appreciate him in multiplayer games where he gets bored easily and randomly opens doors. All the advantages of trolling with full deniability.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:43 pm

Sad that only a couple of Castlevania games have bothered to make Fist McBones a playable character! He's pretty crucial to Circle of the Moon speedruns, though.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:39 pm

Hey R2 what have you been doing instead of winning the fight against Proto-Babil

Well you see, Free Enterprise did wonders for breathing new replayability into FF4. So somebody went and did the same thing for FF6.

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Worlds Collide is the same sort of open-world randomizer. You start the game on the Blackjack hovering over Narshe, and have the freedom to go anywhere on the map. When you hit up the helm of the Blackjack, you get the option to switch to the World of Ruin map, transforming the ship into the Falcon in the process. You start with three Moogle Charms in your inventory to avoid any encounters whenever you want to, which is a decent substitute for just turning them on or off in the settings menu.

For this run I started with Relm and Edgar.

In Free Enterprise, the first things you go do are hit up the places where you can get characters for free, then anyplace that's flush with now-randomized treasure to see if you can score some overpowered equipment. In Worlds Collide, you might be tempted to also check areas that should have Magicite for the taking.

So I went to the shore of the tiny, lonely island where Celes wakes up in the World of Ruin, to see if I can get Palidor. The beach is empty. Cid reports he's feelin' fine in the nearby shack, so that's not what unlocks it.

(I ran into Doom Gaze on the way. Well, Phunbaba in the Doom Gaze boss slot. He wasted me with Thundara pretty effortlessly.)

Well, I've only got two characters. Maybe if I go to the Veldt in the World of Ruin, Gau will sign on. He does not. I do get to see what happens when you go to the Veldt without getting into any random encounters to populate it, though. You always run into a formation of one Lobo.

The guy in Tzen wants over 24,000 gil/gp/gilp for Seraphim. I check the World of Ruin where it's normally cheaper, and it is! He only wants 18,000 for it. I'm still a bit short on pocket change, so I'll have to come back.

Check the South Figaro basement prison for Celes? She's not there.

Check the pub in Kohlingen WoR for Setzer? Not there.

I've got Relm, so I swing by the Cult of Kefka Tower. There's some random mook walking around with the robed figures out front, so it's not Strago... but Relm doesn't say anything anyway so he just keeps marching in circles.

Check Mobliz WoR for Terra? Not there.

Check Thamasa WoB for Strago? Not there, and the innkeeper wants 1000000 muns to sleep, even though he should recognize Relm.

Check Figaro for Edgar?

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Yeah Setzer is just chillin' on the throne. So character +1.

I find a Thunder Shield or two, so I go try Phunbaba in the Doom Gaze slot again. He's a lot easier when you can absorb his lightning attacks! Nothing absorbs 1000 Needles, though, and no one has anywhere near 1000 HP yet. Oh well. Put another pin in that one.

I sell off enough random treasures to raise 18,000 muns, and the guy in Tzen hands over the Bahamut esper.

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It's a randomizer, though, so instead of teaching Flare, Bahamut teaches a bunch of effect magic. At least I have a level-up bonus for someone now.

The Bahamut summon still works, once per battle like usual, so I do have a Panic button when things go south.

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...I guess I know where to find Celes now. Makes sense that the person who picks up ice magic naturally is the one hanging out in the frozen caves behind the frozen esper in the windswept, snowy mountains.

There's a ghost figure hanging out in the snowfield on the way to Tritoch, who asks if I'm "prepared". I assume saying yes prompts the save-the-esper Narshe fight at the end of Act 1. I'm very much not prepared, so I decline.

Mog is hanging out in the WoB moogle caves, but he just says "Kupo... po!" like he does before he's recruited.

I check the Returner's Hideout, but there's no raft on the Lete River.

The cave near Thamasa WoB is open, though...

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Since Relm is in my party, there's an imp trailing the party instead.

And in the Ultros slot?

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A partywipe.

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You can get eaten by a Zone Eater, but there's a guy who never moves from his bridge blocking passage through to Gogo's location.

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Ugh, finally someone else. I chase Locke through the South Figaro WoR caves, into the Figaro Castle basement, and find Dadaluma ground up into paste gunking up the castle engines. Well, he was ground up into paste by the time I was done with him. Locke +1.

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With Locke in tow I can unlocke the doors in Narshe. The weaponsmith offers me either Ifrit or a ValiantKnife, a far cry from Ragnarok or, uh, Ragnarok. I take the esper, and am disappointed to learn that the only spell it teaches is Protect. I already have that one!

The guy who hands over the Cursed Shield is polite enough to tell me it'll take 27 battles to uncurse it. That's awfully nice of him, and of the game for cutting down the number of fights I need to be in. I don't have a Ribbon yet, though, so I'll have to hold off.

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That is the wrong dragon to be hanging out in the snowy mountain pass. (No one has Holy Pearl yet but Relm has had a Holy Pearl Rod for most of the run so far, and it casting Holy Pearl for me has gotten me out of a few tight spots.) Winning nets me a Magus Rod.

Tritoch slot is Umaro. Presumably Celes kicked him out of his cave. Once I beat him the cliff face opens up, but I'm not given a prompt to jump in. Umaro doesn't join the party after his defeat, either.

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I'm starting to sense a pattern for which events are available and which ones aren't. The character associated with that event has to be present in the party to trigger it. Someone was sitting on Edgar's throne because Edgar was already recruited. The path into the Esper hideout near Thamasa was open because Relm is here. I could enter the Figaro Castle basement because, again, Edgar.

So for Relm I guess I have Owzer's Mansion, but not the Cult of Kefka Tower, I tried that already. All I can come up with for Edgar is Mt. Koltz and prompting Sabin to join, but since that's Sabin's join slot I'm pretty sure that's his thing, not Edgar's. I got Setzer, so I can probably do Daryl's Tomb. And with Locke, I try the South Figaro basement again -- Celes isn't there -- and the WoB South Figaro Cave. The TunnelArmor boss slot is active now and it wasn't before, so... the evidence suggests that's how the randomizer works.

(This is absolutely the case, and I really should read the documentation on the randomizer before I start playing, because it says pretty plainly that events are character-gated.)

After I beat the Phantom Train in the TunnelArmor slot, Sabin walks up out of nowhere and joins the party. Hi, Sabin.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:16 pm

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Beating the Vargas slot -- it is Sabin's prompt -- nets me the Maduin esper. And the Maduin esper nets me Ultima.

Well... okay then.

I hit up the Ancient Castle under Figaro, where the petrified queen cries Terrato into my inventory and the Blue Gold Dragon is slain.

I finish Owzer's Mansion, where the R-Type shoutout in the air force gives me Carbunkle.

I hop down Baren Falls and challenge Hidon, and am rewarded with Raiden.

Reentering the mountains near Thamasa, I manage to beat Atma and earn Ramuh. Aha, so the various random NPCs and imps and such that I see running around are "you're going to get an item here, not a character" hints.

The cafe in Kohlingen WoR, where Setzer was drinking himself to death, wordlessly hands over Bismark. New discovery: you don't have to have a character present for the events they unlock, just recruited.

Down in Daryl's Tomb I find a crummy Antidote in the secret room that normally has the Experience Egg, and fight Chadarnook for Tritoch.

The collapsing house in Tzen nets me Mog.

With Sabin in tow I hit up the Imperial Camp outside Doma. The monster-in-a-box here that's normally Telstar is instead KatanaSoul. Thankfully, Bahamut has already taught some people Confuse, and KatanaSoul still kills himself if you Confuse him. The reward for beating KatanaSoul is still the Offering, not the Green Beret normally in that chest. So that's nice.

The person who charges into the camp FIGHTIN' MAD over the death of his cohorts in Doma Castle is... uh, Gau. So I got Gau. I'm not sure I'll ever use Gau for anything, since there's no telling what monsters I'll run into or where, so there's not a lot of control over what Rages I can get.

What am I going to use this Offering for, though?

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Ah. Okay.

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I take Gau into the Serpent Trench, since you need him to get the diving helmet it's considered his event. The Serpent Trench is populated with Level 90 Magics and Level 60 Magics from the Cult of Kefka Tower. I have to take a couple Meteors and Meltdowns on the chin before I make it through, and am rewarded with Cyan for my efforts.

I chase Lone Wolf into the mountains behind Narshe and am given a choice between a ValiantKnife and the Shoat esper. I take the esper. (I find out later that there are set locations where you can pick up the item you gave up in the Lone Wolf and the Ragnarok events. Both of them in this run were a choice between what I got and a ValiantKnife, so no great loss, but it's there in case the game decides to make one of those decisions actually difficult.)

I tell the spookum nearby that I am in fact Prepared and it does start the Narshe battle sequence. I rush the boss like usual and it turns out to be Guardian. But I just ran through the Serpent Trench and Mog has the Water Rondo, and machines still really hate water and electricity. No sweat. I get Shiva, so the game is really going all-in with putting everything ice-themed in the mountains.

Huh. My next note is that I got Umaro, but it doesn't say what I did when I got him. So... I got Umaro and headed back to the split-open cliffside behind where Tritoch/Umaro himself used to sit. The Terrato esper isn't there anymore, but Celes is.

Celes in tow means there's an imperial soldier in the basement in South Figaro, who coughs up a Heal Rod.

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#24 has taken over the stage in the Opera House. After the show an imp pops in to spin Maria out of her dress and fly off with Celes, despite Celes being in my party right then. She just stands idly by and watches herself get kidnapped. For her valiant heroism I get the Unicorn esper.

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So... much like Free Enterprise, it turns out, the pace of unlocking things can be somewhat uneven. If you have Edgar, great! Just walk up to the throne in Figaro and collect your reward. Found Celes? There's something waiting for you in the South Figaro basement, swing by if you have a minute.

On the other hand, Locke nets you the Phoenix Cave, which is slightly less brutal with two Moogle Charms but still. Strago gets you Ebot's Rock. Shadow unlocks the Floating Continent. And Celes nets you the Magitek Factory/Research Facility events, and the plethora of boss fights therein.

The Ifrit/Shiva slot gives a thing -- in my case I beat Ultros and got Crusader.

The #24 slot is now the Senior Sister Sir Señor King Behemoth. That doesn't give a thing based on the boss slot, but the King Behemoth still gives a Behemoth Suit when you kill it, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

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But, uh... we're just gonna leave all those Espers in their tanks? In the vanilla game this part is a boatload of new Magicite, but here you just... kind of abandon them all to whatever fate awaits them in the tubes.

Then you get to fight the #128 slot -- Atma, in this case -- and collect another thing on your way out. It's Shadow, for this run.

So the Magitek Factory is a hell of a schlep but you do get two things for completing it. Crusader and Shadow, in my case, with a bonus Behemoth Suit thrown in.

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Oh yeah, we're not done yet, though. Still gotta fight the Crane boss slot.

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Having Shadow unlocks another freebie: Gau's dad's house in the World of Balance has a thing to pick up.

With Gogo aboard I head through the Zone Eater's belly to get to Gogo's recruit point... and some guy there gives me a ValiantKnife. Damn this game loves its ValiantKnives.

The White Dragon awaits on Mt. Zozo, and is a pushover like usual.

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On the mountaintop, a hunk of rock sends a carrier pigeon off with a message and recites a haiku to itself.

It's Seraphim.

I nab Strago from where he's passed out in the monster's nest in the Veldt Cave. I hit up the Phoenix Cave, fight... uh, whichever dragon that was there, and collect Siren. The Opera House in the WoR has another dragon in Dirt Dragon's slot. In this case, it's actually Dirt Dragon.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:36 pm

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That Cyan has nightmares about a wisecracking fangy octopus with a Kansai-ben raises a few questions.

Being another pretty lengthy event, Cyan's Nightmare also gets you two things. Tritoch replaced Wrexsoul as the boss, and gave up the Ragnarok magicite. Then I found the Odin magicite sitting on the throne when it was over.

I track down and kill Phunbaba, and am rewarded with a Snow Scarf. So it wouldn't have done much even if I could have taken him down at the very start.

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Shadow unlocks the prompt to find the Floating Continent on the WoB airship. The Imperial Air Force is made up of Level 90 and Level 60 magics, but I'm a bit stronger now and can take them on more easily. After only three fights, Ultros and Chupon show up... only actually they're a bunch of flying fish.

Larry, Curly, and Moe try to intercept the party on their way down to the Floating Continent. Upon landing, they collect the Palidor magicite.

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Doom Gaze replaces Atma Weapon, and is probably a tougher fight for the slot. Beating Atma Weapon earns me the Golem magicite.

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And as the party escapes this random mook shows up and throws them the Alexander magicite.

So some characters get "freebie" events, and some characters unlock much longer and more complicated events that give multiple rewards. The Magitek Factory gives two, Cyan's Nightmare gives two, and the Floating Continent gives three.

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...all right, that parses. My reward is Zoneseek.

TunnelArmor replaces Magimaster at the top of the Cult of Kefka tower. On my way out, the guy marching around out front gives me Starlet. Or Lakshmi. Whoever that is.

The Hidon slot is Ultros with Chupon in tow. True to form everyone is sneezed out of the cave instead of managing a true victory. No wonder Strago had so much trouble with those guys when he was younger.

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It makes for a pretty interesting story to tell Terra, though.

With Terra I can go to Mobliz, where there's a lot of drama surrounding Katarin's pregnancy...

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...because Katarin is GHOST PREGNANT

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The Phunbaba 2 slot is still Phunbaba, who snorts two people into the aether before round three. The Phunbaba 3 slot is instead a writing mass of tentacles capable of grabbing and immobilizing the two characters who remain. Pictured: fuck that.

The reward for Mobliz is Fenrir.

The Whelk/Ymir slot is Ultros again, but I think this is the last form. The Whelk is one of the slots that horks up the option you passed up earlier, in this case the ValiantKnife I could have taken instead of the Shoat magicite.

The Lete River is where Nerapa lives, and chopping him in half gets me the Phantom magicite.

Poltergeist waits atop one of the skyscrapers in Zozo, and gives me Kirin.

A spookum at the back of the Sealed Cave hands over Phoenix.

I'm actually kind of running out of events to do. I head up to Kefka's Tower, where I find Goddess sitting in jail. The last two Dragons are right where they're supposed to be, and once their slain I got... a Crystal Orb, I think. Same as you get for beating the Skull Dragon slot anyway. I actually spent about an hour going back and making sure I got all of the dragons before realizing that yeah, that's it. That's the reward.

I'm still missing exactly one esper, though. I figured I'd get it for beating the dragons. Where is Cait Sith?

Amusingly, the Inferno slot is #128. Wrong palette!

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Also amusingly, the Guardian slot is filled by Kefka himself.

Two of the statues slots are Leader (from Doma WoB, when Cyan is introduced) and Whelk/Ymir. The last one remains a mystery because I only have eight people powered up enough to take on the last dungeon. I gotta go teach magic and gain levels with the rest.

At least at this point gaining levels is done with a nearly-full inventory of espers, so people can get some good stat-ups as they grow.

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I hang out on the Veldt to collect magic spells, since people are going to get spells from espers they don't want level bonuses from, and the Veldt fights don't give any experience points. There are a few oddities with the Veldt encounter system, though.

Eventually I swing by the Coliseum and find that plain ol' regular Bucklers, available almost for free at this point, can be swapped for Cursed Shields. So while I grind I'm also uncursing those into this game's version of Adamant armor.

Man, where is that last esper

I tried everything I can think of

what did I miss

is there a checklist somewhere

I mean I'm almost done teaching magic to these guys, I don't even need a full party anymore, I can

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son of a bitch

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Stray teaches Flare and Quick, two spells that are actually pretty well worth going back and teaching people.

I haven't used Strago much either, for the same reasons as Gau -- who knows where the good Lore monsters are? Hidon was at Baren Falls, so I'm pretty sure I can't go back for GrandTrain Trine. I do find where Earthguard and Peepers hang out, and manage to get both Mighty Guard and White Wind in the same fight by having Relm cast Quick and then Sketch each monster.

That's... actually that's the last screenshot I have for this run. When you have 12 Paladin shields and everyone is level 60 or so and half of those guys got to level up with decent Esper bonuses, like Terra has 127 Magic and 76 Speed, and there's only one boss slot left to fight before the last battle, and the ending is exactly the same

why continue to take screenshots?

I cast Ultima a bunch and won, whee

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Blossom
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Re: Randomization

Postby Blossom » Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:59 pm

Seeing this, I downloaded it and gave it a whirl.

Maybe I had bad flags or a bad seed, maybe it's just that I haven't played the game in forever, maybe it's just nonintuitive with the character gating, but I had a really hard time even starting. It's a lot rougher than Free Enterprise, though I guess they don't have key items to lean on for checks.
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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:31 pm

Blossom wrote:Seeing this, I downloaded it and gave it a whirl.


I guess a proper thing to do would be to link to the site when I talk about stuff like this. That's fixed now.

Character gating is really unintuitive. It took me a lot of wandering around lost before I figured out the pattern. Key Items in Free Enterprise are easy! You use the Baron Key to unlock the door in Baron. You use the Magma Stone to open the Underworld. You use the Adamantite to turn the Mythgraven Sword into Excalibur.

The thing that still throws me on my second Worlds Collide run is that you need to have recruited a character to trigger the event that normally gives you that character.

So for the record: Gotta have Terra to fight the Whelk slot in WoB Narshe and for WoR Mobliz,
gotta have Locke for Phoenix Cave,
gotta have Edgar to check the throne in WoB Figaro and to do Figaro basement,
gotta have Sabin to fight Vargas and do WoR Tzen,
gotta have Shadow to pick up the freebie at Gau's dad's house and the Floating Continent and the Cave on the Veldt,
gotta have Gau to get the Veldt gimme,
gotta have Cyan to do the WoB fight at Doma and Mt. Zozo,
gotta have Celes to do the South Figaro basement,
gotta have Setzer to get the freebie in WoR Kohlingen,
gotta have Mog to do Lone Wolf in Narshe,
gotta have Strago to do Burning House and the Cult of Kefka Tower,
gotta have Relm to do Esper Hideaway and Owzer's Mansion,
gotta have Umaro to explore the caves behind Tritoch
and gotta have Gogo to do Zone Eater's Belly.

So of 36 gated events, 22 are "have the character to do that character's intro event".

The other gated events are Ebot's Rock (Strago);
the Lete River, Sealed Gate, and Zozo town (Terra);
Daryl's Tomb (Setzer);
the Ancient Castle (gotta do Figaro Basement first, so Edgar);
the Serpent Trench (Gau);
Cyan's Nightmare (uh, Cyan);
TunnelArmor in South Figaro Cave (Locke);
the Magitek Factory and Ultros Crashes the Opera (Celes);
and Imperial Camp, Phantom Train, and Baren Falls (Sabin).

The ungated events are fighting the 8 dragons (though unlocking Kefka's Tower for the last two probably means passing other gates, depending on the seed settings), buying whatever happens to be at the Auction House, fighting whoever's flying around the World of Ruin world map, the Save Tritoch multi-party battle in Narshe WoB, battling Tritoch itself in Narshe WoR, and buying the magicite from the guy hiding in the woods behind Tzen. I think all of those are set to reward items or magicite except WoB Narshe, but I've done one and a half runs so I can't be real sure.

My second run started me with Celes and Gogo. Zone Eater's Belly gave me an item, the Opera gave me magicite, and Strago was chained up in the South Figaro basement. The Burning House and Ebot's Rock gave magicite. The Magitek Factory gave me an item and magicite. So my options were to either run Cult of Kefka Tower with very limited magic options, or try the Narshe WoB battle with three people total. Worlds Collide is not particularly nice about giving you characters to open event gates. I guess it doesn't help that there are twice as many espers as recruitable characters.

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nosimpleway
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Re: Randomization

Postby nosimpleway » Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:07 pm

I think what would make Worlds Collide 100% more accessible is Rosa's mom.

Not Rosa's mom specifically, but someone who can tell you which events are still out there. In Free Enterprise Rosa's mom will list any potential key item slots, including summons you haven't beaten if those might have key items too. Half of her lines are "do the Lunar Subterrane there's like a million things there" but still.

Maybe talking to each character on the airship would give a hint about one of their gated events that hasn't been completed yet, and they switch to their generic lines after all their events are cleared.

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