Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
I have a nephew who's into westerns (because of RDR2) and I keep trying to talk him into coming over and watching Shane or Stagecoach or the Dollars Trilogy. And then maybe branch out into samurai and sword-and-sandal and post-apocalyptic wasteland movies and talk about how they're all basically the same genre.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
37. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Sigh.
DOTA ASIDE:
Joss Whedon.
Welp, I knew when I started this thread that I was gonna get to this fucker eventually. I will stick to what I said and not make this post about Mr. Entitled Shitfuck, and instead just talk about and analyze a show he worked on.
So what makes him a shitfuck? Well, I think I'll just summarize it by saying that there was an unoffical rule among the cast and crew that Whedon was not allowed alone in his office with 16 year old Michelle Trachtenberg after she joined the cast.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? If you're curious about what exactly Joss Whedon is guilty of, you can look it up yourself, because frankly, I can't fucking stomach thinking about it, much less writing about it. Fuck him.
anyway, let's move on. The Author is extremely fucking Dead, in this case especially, because I don't want a show as important (and impactful) as Buffy to be tainted by someone as shitty as Whedon.
So, is Buffy perfect? Nope. Is Buffy lacking in critical analysis? Well, I think maybe Citizen Kane might have been analyzed more, but it might be the only thing. The internet is bursting at the seams with fan criticism of Buffy. Blog posts, video essays, multi-part video essays, critical analysis from a feminist viewpoint, critical analysis from a pre and post 9/11 viewpoint, critical analysis from a "vampire fiction and what it has meant and currently means to everyone" standpoint, critical analysis from a "vampire fiction and what it has meant and currently means to women" standpoint, and etc etc etc.
You get the idea. There's nothing here that I can say that hasn't been said 10,000 times before by people more eloquent and smarter than me.
But what the hell, I gotta write something.
So let's quickly cover the basics:
Buffy is a show about taking whatever trope you think is going to happen and instead doing the exact opposite. This isn't as clever as Whedon thought it was, even back in 1997, but it was clever enough to blow the fucking pants off of the usual teen viewer.
"Oh my god," said the 15 year old girl watching the very first scene in the show. "It turned out that the vulnerable teen girl was the vampire instead of the vampy looking guy leading her deeper and deeper into the school!" Then that same 15 year old got online and immediately wrote a five-hundred page fanfic starring Spike and her OC even though Spike didn't get introduced until season 2.
This review is sounding very negative. I should switch gears, because I actually love Buffy a lot.
Buffy is a show about a cool British guy who does all the hard work while a teenage girl with superpowers takes all the credit just for showing up to a fight and punching a few times. Meanwhile Giles has to pour over the books for hours and hours and frequently has to clean up all of Buffy's messes and
Okay fine fine I'll do a real review
Buffy is a show about the struggle to transition from childhood to adulthood, in those awkward teen years at the end of highschool. And once it's done being about that, it's a show about the struggle to transition from childhood to adulthood, in those awkward college years right after highschool. All set on a backdrop of weird, fast and loose supernatural lore that was pretty much just made up as it went along. But that's fine. I don't mind that the show played fast and loose with its own mythology. The show never took itself quite that seriously.
But drama whores, don't worry, the show takes itself seriously plenty if what you're here for is juicy juicy character drama. Man, are these people teenagers! Complete with romantic drama, friendship drama, and just some good old fashioned Vampire romantic drama.
Man, I am having a hard time talking this show up. It's good, I promise you!
I suppose what makes this show hard to talk up is that if you zoom in to look at any of the parts, they all look pretty terrible. But somehow Buffy manages to be greater than the sum of its parts in all the ways that count. And yes, it's about female empowerment and agency and well, straight up power. Buffy is an inspiring character. Flawed and human, but at the end of the day triumphant. She makes mistakes but always comes through in the end.
Willow is great, probably the best character on the show, but Dark Willow is stupid and bad and stupid bad.
Xander is divisive in the fandom. Some see him as a positive and supportive male presence, others as an example of the "nerd" brand of toxic masculinity. Personally, I think he's about 50/50.
Cordelia is the resident popular girl who gets sucked in to the Scoobies orbit against her will. She's great, but her arc isn't done in full in this show. We'll get to her more later.
Dawn is the annoying little sister. She is annoying on purpose but gets marginally better after she gets some time to develop. She's fine.
Spike is amazing in early season 2, a sleek, sexy predator that then spends the rest of the show being lame until he finally comes back into his own during the final season 7. I love him despite his long stretch of lameness.
Giles is the actual best character on the show. The old and wise mentor character, and because this is a show that always does the opposite of the expected trope, he isn't killed off at the exact midpoint of the story. He instead gets to survive to the end! Yay!
There's a large cast of additional rotating characters, including Willow's one and true love, Kennedy.
HAHAHAHAH okay no Kennedy is literally the worst character, not just on the show but of all characters, ever
I speak of course of Tara, who is ripped from Willows life in what must be the single worst plot choice in the history of plot choices. Except then I guess they made the plot choice to introduce Kennedy, so nevermind it's second-worst.
The show revolutionized ... god, like, everything? Is there a TV show in our generation more influential and impactful on how stories are told? Maybe, but any list of the top five after 1980 has got to include Buffy, and it might be at the top. Serial storytelling, brobdingnagian bads for each season, quips, females legit kicking ass, quips, VAMPIRES, quips, nerd humor, pushing nerd humor to the mainstream, quips, pop culture quips, MARVEL QUIPPY QUIPS, and a real stride forward for queer storytelling and characters.
The show has started to show its age, somewhat, but honestly I think in the end Buffy might be at least mostly evergreen. I think it was a good show for 15 year old girls to watch in 1999, and I think it's going to be a good show for 15 year old girls to watch in 2065 even if they don't understand any of the pop culture stuff and keep asking "why does not Buffy simply use her smartphone to get out of this predicament".
A lot of people say they hate season 6 because of The Trio, but honestly I like them a lot. They are the true representation of nerd toxic masculinity that Xander only occasionally wanders into. I remember reading a review Thad wrote about rewatching X-Men, about how the Hellfire club seemed dumb to him at the time, but now it's his favorite group of mutant villains because they are the most realistic. I feel the same way about the Trio. Warren is a man who sees women not as people, but as things to entertain and sate his desires, and that shit is baked into like 35% of the male population of the world minimum. Maybe that's what people don't like him so much, because he's too real.
Alright, let's get down to the brass tacks for the other Buffy fans reading this:
Spike over Angel over Riley
Tara obv, but I like Oz too
TOP: Season 7, Season 5, Season 3
MID: Season 6, Season 2
LOW: Season 4, Season 1
brobdingnagian BAD TIER LIST:
GLORY TIER: Glory
S Tier: The Mayor, Spike
A Tier: The Trio, The First
B Tier: The Master, Angelus
F Tier: Adam
fucking bottom of the shadow realm tier: Dark Willow
EPISODE TIER LIST:
Once More With Feeling Tier: Once More With Feeling
S Tier: Hush
A Tier: That one where they eat the candy that makes Giles and Buffy's mom act like teenagers, The Body, The Wish
B Tier: Tabula Rasa, i don't know more episodes there are a lot of episodes okay
F Tier: Beer Bad
So that's it. That's my Buffy "review." I don't know, man. Go watch the 100,000 hours of video essay that exist on the topic. Or just binge the show again, whatever.
Do I recommend this show:
Yeah, it's like an important historical document. Even if it's not really your thing, you could study it to find all the DNA of every fucking show made after it.
Sigh.
DOTA ASIDE:
Joss Whedon.
Welp, I knew when I started this thread that I was gonna get to this fucker eventually. I will stick to what I said and not make this post about Mr. Entitled Shitfuck, and instead just talk about and analyze a show he worked on.
So what makes him a shitfuck? Well, I think I'll just summarize it by saying that there was an unoffical rule among the cast and crew that Whedon was not allowed alone in his office with 16 year old Michelle Trachtenberg after she joined the cast.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? If you're curious about what exactly Joss Whedon is guilty of, you can look it up yourself, because frankly, I can't fucking stomach thinking about it, much less writing about it. Fuck him.
anyway, let's move on. The Author is extremely fucking Dead, in this case especially, because I don't want a show as important (and impactful) as Buffy to be tainted by someone as shitty as Whedon.
So, is Buffy perfect? Nope. Is Buffy lacking in critical analysis? Well, I think maybe Citizen Kane might have been analyzed more, but it might be the only thing. The internet is bursting at the seams with fan criticism of Buffy. Blog posts, video essays, multi-part video essays, critical analysis from a feminist viewpoint, critical analysis from a pre and post 9/11 viewpoint, critical analysis from a "vampire fiction and what it has meant and currently means to everyone" standpoint, critical analysis from a "vampire fiction and what it has meant and currently means to women" standpoint, and etc etc etc.
You get the idea. There's nothing here that I can say that hasn't been said 10,000 times before by people more eloquent and smarter than me.
But what the hell, I gotta write something.
So let's quickly cover the basics:
Buffy is a show about taking whatever trope you think is going to happen and instead doing the exact opposite. This isn't as clever as Whedon thought it was, even back in 1997, but it was clever enough to blow the fucking pants off of the usual teen viewer.
"Oh my god," said the 15 year old girl watching the very first scene in the show. "It turned out that the vulnerable teen girl was the vampire instead of the vampy looking guy leading her deeper and deeper into the school!" Then that same 15 year old got online and immediately wrote a five-hundred page fanfic starring Spike and her OC even though Spike didn't get introduced until season 2.
This review is sounding very negative. I should switch gears, because I actually love Buffy a lot.
Buffy is a show about a cool British guy who does all the hard work while a teenage girl with superpowers takes all the credit just for showing up to a fight and punching a few times. Meanwhile Giles has to pour over the books for hours and hours and frequently has to clean up all of Buffy's messes and
Okay fine fine I'll do a real review
Buffy is a show about the struggle to transition from childhood to adulthood, in those awkward teen years at the end of highschool. And once it's done being about that, it's a show about the struggle to transition from childhood to adulthood, in those awkward college years right after highschool. All set on a backdrop of weird, fast and loose supernatural lore that was pretty much just made up as it went along. But that's fine. I don't mind that the show played fast and loose with its own mythology. The show never took itself quite that seriously.
But drama whores, don't worry, the show takes itself seriously plenty if what you're here for is juicy juicy character drama. Man, are these people teenagers! Complete with romantic drama, friendship drama, and just some good old fashioned Vampire romantic drama.
Man, I am having a hard time talking this show up. It's good, I promise you!
I suppose what makes this show hard to talk up is that if you zoom in to look at any of the parts, they all look pretty terrible. But somehow Buffy manages to be greater than the sum of its parts in all the ways that count. And yes, it's about female empowerment and agency and well, straight up power. Buffy is an inspiring character. Flawed and human, but at the end of the day triumphant. She makes mistakes but always comes through in the end.
Willow is great, probably the best character on the show, but Dark Willow is stupid and bad and stupid bad.
Xander is divisive in the fandom. Some see him as a positive and supportive male presence, others as an example of the "nerd" brand of toxic masculinity. Personally, I think he's about 50/50.
Cordelia is the resident popular girl who gets sucked in to the Scoobies orbit against her will. She's great, but her arc isn't done in full in this show. We'll get to her more later.
Dawn is the annoying little sister. She is annoying on purpose but gets marginally better after she gets some time to develop. She's fine.
Spike is amazing in early season 2, a sleek, sexy predator that then spends the rest of the show being lame until he finally comes back into his own during the final season 7. I love him despite his long stretch of lameness.
Giles is the actual best character on the show. The old and wise mentor character, and because this is a show that always does the opposite of the expected trope, he isn't killed off at the exact midpoint of the story. He instead gets to survive to the end! Yay!
There's a large cast of additional rotating characters, including Willow's one and true love, Kennedy.
HAHAHAHAH okay no Kennedy is literally the worst character, not just on the show but of all characters, ever
I speak of course of Tara, who is ripped from Willows life in what must be the single worst plot choice in the history of plot choices. Except then I guess they made the plot choice to introduce Kennedy, so nevermind it's second-worst.
The show revolutionized ... god, like, everything? Is there a TV show in our generation more influential and impactful on how stories are told? Maybe, but any list of the top five after 1980 has got to include Buffy, and it might be at the top. Serial storytelling, brobdingnagian bads for each season, quips, females legit kicking ass, quips, VAMPIRES, quips, nerd humor, pushing nerd humor to the mainstream, quips, pop culture quips, MARVEL QUIPPY QUIPS, and a real stride forward for queer storytelling and characters.
The show has started to show its age, somewhat, but honestly I think in the end Buffy might be at least mostly evergreen. I think it was a good show for 15 year old girls to watch in 1999, and I think it's going to be a good show for 15 year old girls to watch in 2065 even if they don't understand any of the pop culture stuff and keep asking "why does not Buffy simply use her smartphone to get out of this predicament".
A lot of people say they hate season 6 because of The Trio, but honestly I like them a lot. They are the true representation of nerd toxic masculinity that Xander only occasionally wanders into. I remember reading a review Thad wrote about rewatching X-Men, about how the Hellfire club seemed dumb to him at the time, but now it's his favorite group of mutant villains because they are the most realistic. I feel the same way about the Trio. Warren is a man who sees women not as people, but as things to entertain and sate his desires, and that shit is baked into like 35% of the male population of the world minimum. Maybe that's what people don't like him so much, because he's too real.
Alright, let's get down to the brass tacks for the other Buffy fans reading this:
Spike over Angel over Riley
Tara obv, but I like Oz too
TOP: Season 7, Season 5, Season 3
MID: Season 6, Season 2
LOW: Season 4, Season 1
brobdingnagian BAD TIER LIST:
GLORY TIER: Glory
S Tier: The Mayor, Spike
A Tier: The Trio, The First
B Tier: The Master, Angelus
F Tier: Adam
fucking bottom of the shadow realm tier: Dark Willow
EPISODE TIER LIST:
Once More With Feeling Tier: Once More With Feeling
S Tier: Hush
A Tier: That one where they eat the candy that makes Giles and Buffy's mom act like teenagers, The Body, The Wish
B Tier: Tabula Rasa, i don't know more episodes there are a lot of episodes okay
F Tier: Beer Bad
So that's it. That's my Buffy "review." I don't know, man. Go watch the 100,000 hours of video essay that exist on the topic. Or just binge the show again, whatever.
Do I recommend this show:
Yeah, it's like an important historical document. Even if it's not really your thing, you could study it to find all the DNA of every fucking show made after it.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
I will never forget when I was showing Buffy to my parents, and, in the middle of season 6, my dad started talking sincerely about how Buffy should marry Spike because of how strong their love for each other is.
That's when I truly understood that you don't have to be violent, or violate consent to be a misogynist...
That's when I truly understood that you don't have to be violent, or violate consent to be a misogynist...
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
To be clear, when I say Spike > Angel > Riley, I mean season 7 Spike, post the whole soul-getty-backy thing.
All of Buffy's three main love interests suck, but Spike sucks the least. By season 7 he finally loves her without also needing to possess her, a feat the other two never achieve.
But yeah he's also the only one who SAs her, so uh. He didn't have a soul at the time, but still. I don't blame anyone who thinks Spike is bad for Buffy. I do sort of squint my eyes at anyone who says the other two aren't, though. I think Buffy is fine on her own.
For the record, Marsters was against the SA and hated/protested it, to this day he's never watched the scene. It was Whedon's idea.
All of Buffy's three main love interests suck, but Spike sucks the least. By season 7 he finally loves her without also needing to possess her, a feat the other two never achieve.
But yeah he's also the only one who SAs her, so uh. He didn't have a soul at the time, but still. I don't blame anyone who thinks Spike is bad for Buffy. I do sort of squint my eyes at anyone who says the other two aren't, though. I think Buffy is fine on her own.
For the record, Marsters was against the SA and hated/protested it, to this day he's never watched the scene. It was Whedon's idea.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
besides everyone knows giles and buffy is the otp, and it's okay because it is totally platonic and the thought never crosses his mind until she's in college at which point he's like "heeeey wait a second" so giles is not a groomer and in this essay i will
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
also sorry but i cannot look at xander in even a remotely positive light, we re-watched up until partway through season five not all that long ago and it is genuinely impossible to see him as anything but The Fucking Worst when it's so clear he's That Fucker's surrogate stand-in.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Frank Conniff once said that the two best TV dramas of the past 20 years (er, it was still "the past 20 years" at that point) were The Sopranos and Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and the only reason Buffy the Vampire Slayer didn't get the same respect as The Sopranos is that it was called Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Season six and seven don't exist for me. The ending of season 5 was so climactic and so final that nothing they did could top that.
No, not even a musical episode.
No, not even a musical episode.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
36. Angel
A spinoff from Buffy starring everyone's favorite "typical guy who sleeps with you once, and after having gotten what he wants, he turns into a total monster" broody vampire bf, Angel gets pretty much zero points for being breakthrough like Buffy was. Since it's a spinoff. But what the hell, there's some good stuff here and I like the show.
DOTA ASIDE:
JOSS WHEDON ALERT, JOSS WHEDON ALERT
What Angel lacks in originality, it makes up for in darker, more serious storytelling. Well, marginally more serious. This is still the Buffyverse we're talking about. It's still playing fast and loose with supernatural lore. But the show has a darker theme to match its main character, a vampire seeking redemption for being the world's worst Vampire Monster for hundreds of years.
He's joined by two cast offs from the main show; Cordelia, our perky popular shallow high school idiot, and Wesley, a guest character from Buffy season 3. They begin where they left off in terms of development but quickly start to arc, and both evolve into much more mature people. Cordelia starts as an LA actress hopeful, full of bright dreams and naive hopes. After those crash and burn, she learns that maybe there's more to life than what society says pretty girls should aspire to and becomes a pretty cool person. I like this kind of arc. It's satisfying to see a character become a healthy human being with good priorities without having to lose what they are.
Wesley, meanwhile, goes super grimdark. By the end of the show he's lamenting the loss of his one true love, killing his own father, and generally being an all around grit exhaling machine. If you put up "Season 3 Buffy" Wesley next to "Season 5 Angel" Wesley you wouldn't even think they were the same character.
The show also has it's own original characters, of course, including Doyle in season 1 (still mad about it) and Illyria in season 5. For my money, Illyria is the best character in the show, and while it's a shame we only get her for the later half of season 5, it also means that they don't waste any time with her character. Her arc is "Ancient Demon finds itself in a mortal body, experiences human emotion for the first time, hates it" and is very fun to watch.
Oh, right, Lorne. Known only as "The Host" for a long time, Lorne is a great character and a highlight of the show. He's a peaceful demon from some alternate demon-dimension who found himself in LA and decided to become a nightclub owner. He can read people's futures by listening to them sing. He's kooky and quirky and funny and really brings in a much needed ray of sunshine to the show. Honestly, he's probably the best character, even over Illyria. He gets all the best lines and pop culture references. A true lover of music and art and good times, imagine a hedonism demon but without the sinister part. A wholesome hedonism demon who just wants people to be happy and enjoy life.
I'll warn everyone here that the show is best in the early and late stages, season 1 and season 5. In seasons 2-4, it gets bogged down in a lot of stupid nonsense that made me skip those seasons when I rewatched the show. That's not a great recommendation, I know. 60% of a show being "skippable, kinda bad" sounds dire, but the good seasons are worth it imo.
The main antagonists of the show are a Law Firm (and demon circle) known as Wolfram and Heart, (The Wolf, The Ram, and The Heart) and the theme of evil being less of a giant demon and more this invisible corporate entity that cannot be fought or killed directly is CAPITALISM ALERT, CAPITALISM ALERT. Angel asks "what if evil wasn't something that could be punched but instead was the underlaying systems we subject ourselves to" and while that's not really an original take on the nature of evil, it sure is an eternally timely one.
Do I recommend this show:
To normal people? Yeah. To this crowd? I dunno. Whedon has tainted all of his works irrevocably and Angel isn't nearly as important or impactful as Buffy was, so I can't rec it on the "it's a historical document" angle. Also the middle 60% is kind of shitty. Eh. I still think there's something of value here, obviously, I wouldn't have ranked it so high/on the same tier as Buffy if I didn't.
I guess if you liked Buffy and haven't seen this, and also you're willing to watch something made by Mr. Sadsack poor me my childhood was so tough Whedon, then yeah, give it a spin. At least check out the first season. If it doesn't click for you, then move on. But I personally think season 5 is the best season, and I'd even say it's better than the best seasons of Buffy. If you can slog your way to it (or just skip seasons 2-4, nothing really important happens) then you might be rewarded.
A spinoff from Buffy starring everyone's favorite "typical guy who sleeps with you once, and after having gotten what he wants, he turns into a total monster" broody vampire bf, Angel gets pretty much zero points for being breakthrough like Buffy was. Since it's a spinoff. But what the hell, there's some good stuff here and I like the show.
DOTA ASIDE:
JOSS WHEDON ALERT, JOSS WHEDON ALERT
What Angel lacks in originality, it makes up for in darker, more serious storytelling. Well, marginally more serious. This is still the Buffyverse we're talking about. It's still playing fast and loose with supernatural lore. But the show has a darker theme to match its main character, a vampire seeking redemption for being the world's worst Vampire Monster for hundreds of years.
He's joined by two cast offs from the main show; Cordelia, our perky popular shallow high school idiot, and Wesley, a guest character from Buffy season 3. They begin where they left off in terms of development but quickly start to arc, and both evolve into much more mature people. Cordelia starts as an LA actress hopeful, full of bright dreams and naive hopes. After those crash and burn, she learns that maybe there's more to life than what society says pretty girls should aspire to and becomes a pretty cool person. I like this kind of arc. It's satisfying to see a character become a healthy human being with good priorities without having to lose what they are.
Wesley, meanwhile, goes super grimdark. By the end of the show he's lamenting the loss of his one true love, killing his own father, and generally being an all around grit exhaling machine. If you put up "Season 3 Buffy" Wesley next to "Season 5 Angel" Wesley you wouldn't even think they were the same character.
The show also has it's own original characters, of course, including Doyle in season 1 (still mad about it) and Illyria in season 5. For my money, Illyria is the best character in the show, and while it's a shame we only get her for the later half of season 5, it also means that they don't waste any time with her character. Her arc is "Ancient Demon finds itself in a mortal body, experiences human emotion for the first time, hates it" and is very fun to watch.
Oh, right, Lorne. Known only as "The Host" for a long time, Lorne is a great character and a highlight of the show. He's a peaceful demon from some alternate demon-dimension who found himself in LA and decided to become a nightclub owner. He can read people's futures by listening to them sing. He's kooky and quirky and funny and really brings in a much needed ray of sunshine to the show. Honestly, he's probably the best character, even over Illyria. He gets all the best lines and pop culture references. A true lover of music and art and good times, imagine a hedonism demon but without the sinister part. A wholesome hedonism demon who just wants people to be happy and enjoy life.
I'll warn everyone here that the show is best in the early and late stages, season 1 and season 5. In seasons 2-4, it gets bogged down in a lot of stupid nonsense that made me skip those seasons when I rewatched the show. That's not a great recommendation, I know. 60% of a show being "skippable, kinda bad" sounds dire, but the good seasons are worth it imo.
The main antagonists of the show are a Law Firm (and demon circle) known as Wolfram and Heart, (The Wolf, The Ram, and The Heart) and the theme of evil being less of a giant demon and more this invisible corporate entity that cannot be fought or killed directly is CAPITALISM ALERT, CAPITALISM ALERT. Angel asks "what if evil wasn't something that could be punched but instead was the underlaying systems we subject ourselves to" and while that's not really an original take on the nature of evil, it sure is an eternally timely one.
Do I recommend this show:
To normal people? Yeah. To this crowd? I dunno. Whedon has tainted all of his works irrevocably and Angel isn't nearly as important or impactful as Buffy was, so I can't rec it on the "it's a historical document" angle. Also the middle 60% is kind of shitty. Eh. I still think there's something of value here, obviously, I wouldn't have ranked it so high/on the same tier as Buffy if I didn't.
I guess if you liked Buffy and haven't seen this, and also you're willing to watch something made by Mr. Sadsack poor me my childhood was so tough Whedon, then yeah, give it a spin. At least check out the first season. If it doesn't click for you, then move on. But I personally think season 5 is the best season, and I'd even say it's better than the best seasons of Buffy. If you can slog your way to it (or just skip seasons 2-4, nothing really important happens) then you might be rewarded.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Seriously, listening to Whedon whine in his interviews about how his hyper-privileged silver spoon upbringing was so tough for him is like the most rage inducing thing ever. Oh no, was your mom kind of a wasp and snarky and it gave you a complex along with all the money and top-tier schooling? That must be so difficult for you. My dad used to hit me if I talked wrong to him, and I didn't end up grooming and sexually manipulating anyone. Maybe try not being a fucking stupid prick? Like, I fucking hate the religious right but I would never make fun of/humiliate publicly anyone for wearing a fucking cross, like you did to Charisma Carpenter. Jesus Christ.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Friday wrote:To be clear, when I say Spike > Angel > Riley, I mean season 7 Spike, post the whole soul-getty-backy thing.
Oh, yeah, to be clear I meant in the episodes leading up to (and also immediately following) the SA. Like, when they were at their most dysfunctional and mutually objectifying...
How fleeting are all human passions compared with the massive continuity of ducks.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
I don't think I ever got into Whedon's self-justification because well, I didn't like him or watch his shit so I wouldn't watch interviews with him, so I'm not familiar with those flimsy self-justifications in the first place.
I wish I could tell you what it was that always put me off his shit - yes, even Firefly - I just could not watch a Whedon series or read a Whedon comic book; they made my skin itch. It's like, the best description I could give you is that there was a part of my brain which was looking into a writer's version of the uncanny valley. It was so close, but it wasn't... right. His human suit didn't quite fit.
I don't pretend I'm some kinda Betazoid; there's plenty of of artists who have been outed as sex pests or worse who I wouldn't have guessed that of. But I did know something wasn't right about that particular fella. I just wish I could put my finger on what it is exactly about Whedon's style that makes me feel that way... but at the same time, I still can't watch his shit, much less do so just to tease out what I find so off-putting about it.
I wish I could tell you what it was that always put me off his shit - yes, even Firefly - I just could not watch a Whedon series or read a Whedon comic book; they made my skin itch. It's like, the best description I could give you is that there was a part of my brain which was looking into a writer's version of the uncanny valley. It was so close, but it wasn't... right. His human suit didn't quite fit.
I don't pretend I'm some kinda Betazoid; there's plenty of of artists who have been outed as sex pests or worse who I wouldn't have guessed that of. But I did know something wasn't right about that particular fella. I just wish I could put my finger on what it is exactly about Whedon's style that makes me feel that way... but at the same time, I still can't watch his shit, much less do so just to tease out what I find so off-putting about it.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Firefly is the remaining Whedon show that we have yet to discuss.
The thing about hating Whedon (or anyone else who was a shitbag who worked on these shows) is that I feel that hating the work is a disservice to the other, non-shitbag people who worked on them. Whedon didn't write all of Buffy or Angel or Firefly, and despite being the head of those three shows, the majority of the work and craft was not done by him.
Daniel Radcliffe is a really cool, down to earth guy who put in a lot of work and time and effort into making the world of Harry Potter. It's not his fault, or anyone else who worked on those movies, that Dusty Turf turned out to be a misogynistic shitbag who won't let an Olympian count as a woman because she does not fall into Rowling's narrow definition of what a woman is.
As much as I dislike Whedon, and JKR, and the rest of them, I refuse to let them ruin something that a lot of other really good-hearted people worked really hard on.
But that's me. I'll continue to happily discuss Buffy theory and even HP theory because I can divorce the work from the shitbag and appreicate the non-shitbag creators/writers/actors that helped make it real. If you can't, that's fine. I don't insist that you do.
The thing about hating Whedon (or anyone else who was a shitbag who worked on these shows) is that I feel that hating the work is a disservice to the other, non-shitbag people who worked on them. Whedon didn't write all of Buffy or Angel or Firefly, and despite being the head of those three shows, the majority of the work and craft was not done by him.
Daniel Radcliffe is a really cool, down to earth guy who put in a lot of work and time and effort into making the world of Harry Potter. It's not his fault, or anyone else who worked on those movies, that Dusty Turf turned out to be a misogynistic shitbag who won't let an Olympian count as a woman because she does not fall into Rowling's narrow definition of what a woman is.
As much as I dislike Whedon, and JKR, and the rest of them, I refuse to let them ruin something that a lot of other really good-hearted people worked really hard on.
But that's me. I'll continue to happily discuss Buffy theory and even HP theory because I can divorce the work from the shitbag and appreicate the non-shitbag creators/writers/actors that helped make it real. If you can't, that's fine. I don't insist that you do.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Mongrel wrote:I don't think I ever got into Whedon's self-justification because well, I didn't like him or watch his shit so I wouldn't watch interviews with him, so I'm not familiar with those flimsy self-justifications in the first place.
I wish I could tell you what it was that always put me off his shit - yes, even Firefly - I just could not watch a Whedon series or read a Whedon comic book; they made my skin itch. It's like, the best description I could give you is that there was a part of my brain which was looking into a writer's version of the uncanny valley. It was so close, but it wasn't... right. His human suit didn't quite fit.
I don't pretend I'm some kinda Betazoid; there's plenty of of artists who have been outed as sex pests or worse who I wouldn't have guessed that of. But I did know something wasn't right about that particular fella. I just wish I could put my finger on what it is exactly about Whedon's style that makes me feel that way... but at the same time, I still can't watch his shit, much less do so just to tease out what I find so off-putting about it.
Yeah, I think you're trying to read too much into coincidence here. There are a staggering number of shitty men; some of them are going to turn out to be people you never liked and some of them are going to turn out to be people you did.
It's okay that you never liked Joss Whedon. Lots of people did. You not liking his work is not any more related to his turning out to be a predator than other people liking his work is.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Friday wrote:Firefly is the remaining Whedon show that we have yet to discuss.
The thing about hating Whedon (or anyone else who was a shitbag who worked on these shows) is that I feel that hating the work is a disservice to the other, non-shitbag people who worked on them. Whedon didn't write all of Buffy or Angel or Firefly, and despite being the head of those three shows, the majority of the work and craft was not done by him.
Daniel Radcliffe is a really cool, down to earth guy who put in a lot of work and time and effort into making the world of Harry Potter. It's not his fault, or anyone else who worked on those movies, that Dusty Turf turned out to be a misogynistic shitbag who won't let an Olympian count as a woman because she does not fall into Rowling's narrow definition of what a woman is.
As much as I dislike Whedon, and JKR, and the rest of them, I refuse to let them ruin something that a lot of other really good-hearted people worked really hard on.
But that's me. I'll continue to happily discuss Buffy theory and even HP theory because I can divorce the work from the shitbag and appreicate the non-shitbag creators/writers/actors that helped make it real. If you can't, that's fine. I don't insist that you do.
Yeah, we're talking specifically about a collaborative medium here. I remember Gellar herself saying something to the effect of "I'll always be proud to be associated with Buffy. That doesn't mean I want to be associated with Joss Whedon."
It's case-by-case for me, I guess. I'm not in a hurry to watch any more Rick and Morty or to re-watch Ren and Stimpy, The Cosby Show, or Bananas, but on the other hand I'll probably watch the last season of Good Omens because Tennant and Sheen have put such heart into it, even if I've got a very different view of Neil Gaiman now than I did six months ago.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Obviously disliking someone's work doesn't necessarily meant he would turn out to be a predator, but usually I can articulate why I didn't like something more coherently than I do in Whedon's case, so it makes me more curious about what it was.
The closest I could get was to rephrase what I said above: most people would praise the verisimilitude of the characters and relationships. That that never rang true for me, yet the writing was just close enough to make the comparison uncomfortable, to make me wonder if I were overreacting. That feels, to me anyway, like a very specific and narrow level of alienation, a dislike of something specific, rather than a broad dislike.
The closest I could get was to rephrase what I said above: most people would praise the verisimilitude of the characters and relationships. That that never rang true for me, yet the writing was just close enough to make the comparison uncomfortable, to make me wonder if I were overreacting. That feels, to me anyway, like a very specific and narrow level of alienation, a dislike of something specific, rather than a broad dislike.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
35. Peacemaker
For the first few episodes of Peacemaker, I wasn't sold on it. I had heard from a few friends that the show was good, but as far as I could tell, it was about a bunch of unlikable people being unlikable. So sort of like Seinfeld but with guns.
A spinoff from... *checks notes* a movie about a bunch of rejects, no, the other one, no, the other other one, Peacemaker is a show about an asshole who tries to murder a teenager who controls rats because the world's worst woman tells him to.
Like I said, it takes awhile to endear itself to you.
Peacemaker is a guy who was raised by a horrific racist father. Played by the T-1000. And his best friend is a murderous psychopathic vigilante. You know, like a more realistic Frank Castle. They're joined by a bunch of dipshits who work for the world's worst woman (DC's Amanda Waller) and like, maybe half a likeable character.
I spent the first few episodes wondering what the hell people saw in this mess. Don't get me wrong, I was already a certified verified and bonafide James Gunn enthusiast, and I loved the second Suicide Squad. But yeah, making the show about a character I despised from the movie seemed like a really uphill battle to me. But I trudged onward, not really having any fun, until I hit the turning point. And what a fucking turning point.
You know the scene. I won't spoil it for people who haven't seen the show, but there is a scene with Vigilante and some racists that is not only my favorite scene in the show, it might just be my favorite scene. You know, ever.
After that, I was in the show's pocket.
The characters define dysfunctional. They avatar assholishness, and they drip with despicability. But slowly but surely, they grow on you. I'm a sucker for "bad unlikable character becomes slowly likable" and this show is basically WHOOPS ALL THAT. Except Waller, of course, who remains (seriously) probably the worst and most detestable villain I've ever known, with maybe only one possible competitor. (We'll get to this competitor later in the thread.)
Peacemaker himself, played to pitch perfect perfection by someone, I can't see him, so no idea, is, all things considered, a pretty nice guy considering his childhood. Once you learn his trauma, you find yourself in his corner, despite all his numerous problems and flaws. And Vigilante is such a bro. I mean, he's also insane and a murderer. But such a bro.
The plot is about an alien takeover, but with a twist. They're here to takeover... but for our own good. And their point of "wow, you guys sure don't know how run shit, you're like, fucking up your whole goddamn planet, why don't you let a professional step in" is sort of hard to deny.
Robert Patrick plays the world's most powerful KKK. He's a through and through complete asshole in a really hard to watch way for me, and anyone else who had an abusive father who hated anything he considered "weak." Patrick plays him well, even if I kept expecting him to suddenly turn into a silver liquid robot.
James Gunn has the magic. Give him the C listers and the D listers and the freedom to tell stories that do not have to be confined to "mainstream" and he will hit 100% of the time, at least in my experience. And he knows how to deliver real emotional moments. I find myself caring for the weirdos of this show far more than I do Wonder Woman, or Superman, or any A lister. While all of them labor endlessly under the "safe" stories that are allowed to people with as much popularity as Batman, Gunn is free to basically do whatever the fuck he wants with a goofy guy who wears a metal helmet and will kill "as many people as it takes" to achieve peace.
He is the Peacemaker, after all. And just like sausage, you don't wanna see how it's made.
Like all good characters with good arcs, Peacemaker does not end the show where he began it. There's nothing more satisfying for me than to see someone grow as a person and become a better version of themselves. And his early bullshit is shown in a negative light, so I don't have any qualms with that either. All in all it's a well written show with a unique plot, good fight scenes, funny jokes, and great acting from the cast (especially Cena and Stroma).
Do I recommend this show:
Yes, but with two caveats:
1. You need to watch Suicide Squad first. Uh, the second Suicide Squad. The one without Will Smith. It's the far better one anyway. It's pretty essential to understand what Peacemaker is at the start of the show.
2. The first few episodes are... well, everyone on screen is an asshole to one degree or another and it seems like there's nobody to root for. But hang on, they'll grow on you. If you're anything like me, by the end of the show you'll love this pack of weirdos and just want to see more of their adventures.
The brobdingnagiest rec I can give is that I had no idea what was going to happen next. That glues me to a story faster than anything else. So many stories are just a collection of tropes, laid out end to end. I've seen them.
For the first few episodes of Peacemaker, I wasn't sold on it. I had heard from a few friends that the show was good, but as far as I could tell, it was about a bunch of unlikable people being unlikable. So sort of like Seinfeld but with guns.
A spinoff from... *checks notes* a movie about a bunch of rejects, no, the other one, no, the other other one, Peacemaker is a show about an asshole who tries to murder a teenager who controls rats because the world's worst woman tells him to.
Like I said, it takes awhile to endear itself to you.
Peacemaker is a guy who was raised by a horrific racist father. Played by the T-1000. And his best friend is a murderous psychopathic vigilante. You know, like a more realistic Frank Castle. They're joined by a bunch of dipshits who work for the world's worst woman (DC's Amanda Waller) and like, maybe half a likeable character.
I spent the first few episodes wondering what the hell people saw in this mess. Don't get me wrong, I was already a certified verified and bonafide James Gunn enthusiast, and I loved the second Suicide Squad. But yeah, making the show about a character I despised from the movie seemed like a really uphill battle to me. But I trudged onward, not really having any fun, until I hit the turning point. And what a fucking turning point.
You know the scene. I won't spoil it for people who haven't seen the show, but there is a scene with Vigilante and some racists that is not only my favorite scene in the show, it might just be my favorite scene. You know, ever.
After that, I was in the show's pocket.
The characters define dysfunctional. They avatar assholishness, and they drip with despicability. But slowly but surely, they grow on you. I'm a sucker for "bad unlikable character becomes slowly likable" and this show is basically WHOOPS ALL THAT. Except Waller, of course, who remains (seriously) probably the worst and most detestable villain I've ever known, with maybe only one possible competitor. (We'll get to this competitor later in the thread.)
Peacemaker himself, played to pitch perfect perfection by someone, I can't see him, so no idea, is, all things considered, a pretty nice guy considering his childhood. Once you learn his trauma, you find yourself in his corner, despite all his numerous problems and flaws. And Vigilante is such a bro. I mean, he's also insane and a murderer. But such a bro.
The plot is about an alien takeover, but with a twist. They're here to takeover... but for our own good. And their point of "wow, you guys sure don't know how run shit, you're like, fucking up your whole goddamn planet, why don't you let a professional step in" is sort of hard to deny.
Robert Patrick plays the world's most powerful KKK. He's a through and through complete asshole in a really hard to watch way for me, and anyone else who had an abusive father who hated anything he considered "weak." Patrick plays him well, even if I kept expecting him to suddenly turn into a silver liquid robot.
James Gunn has the magic. Give him the C listers and the D listers and the freedom to tell stories that do not have to be confined to "mainstream" and he will hit 100% of the time, at least in my experience. And he knows how to deliver real emotional moments. I find myself caring for the weirdos of this show far more than I do Wonder Woman, or Superman, or any A lister. While all of them labor endlessly under the "safe" stories that are allowed to people with as much popularity as Batman, Gunn is free to basically do whatever the fuck he wants with a goofy guy who wears a metal helmet and will kill "as many people as it takes" to achieve peace.
He is the Peacemaker, after all. And just like sausage, you don't wanna see how it's made.
Like all good characters with good arcs, Peacemaker does not end the show where he began it. There's nothing more satisfying for me than to see someone grow as a person and become a better version of themselves. And his early bullshit is shown in a negative light, so I don't have any qualms with that either. All in all it's a well written show with a unique plot, good fight scenes, funny jokes, and great acting from the cast (especially Cena and Stroma).
Do I recommend this show:
Yes, but with two caveats:
1. You need to watch Suicide Squad first. Uh, the second Suicide Squad. The one without Will Smith. It's the far better one anyway. It's pretty essential to understand what Peacemaker is at the start of the show.
2. The first few episodes are... well, everyone on screen is an asshole to one degree or another and it seems like there's nobody to root for. But hang on, they'll grow on you. If you're anything like me, by the end of the show you'll love this pack of weirdos and just want to see more of their adventures.
The brobdingnagiest rec I can give is that I had no idea what was going to happen next. That glues me to a story faster than anything else. So many stories are just a collection of tropes, laid out end to end. I've seen them.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
Oh, also, best OP in the thread so far. Sorry, MiB and X-Men, scoot over.
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
I love Robert Patrick in everything, but his performance in Peacemaker is fearless as a character who starts with no redeeming qualities and then, with each episode, somehow turns out to be even worse.
And he's a huge part of what makes Peacemaker sympathetic. He seemed like a character with no redeeming qualities, too, but when you learn where he comes from and why he is the way he is, it changes everything. He really is trying to be good, he just doesn't know how; that's not his fault and it's a minor miracle that he's only as bad as he is. His moral compass is fucked, but it says something that he even has one.
And yeah I love Waller (I think she's become overused in the comics but that's not the movies'/TV shows' fault), and absent a live-action turn by CCH Pounder it would be hard to find a better choice than Viola Davis. Say what you will about the first Suicide Squad but Margot Robbie and Viola Davis were really fucking fantastic casting choices. (I'm not sure if Jared Leto was their fault or if he was a Zack Snyder pick.)
And he's a huge part of what makes Peacemaker sympathetic. He seemed like a character with no redeeming qualities, too, but when you learn where he comes from and why he is the way he is, it changes everything. He really is trying to be good, he just doesn't know how; that's not his fault and it's a minor miracle that he's only as bad as he is. His moral compass is fucked, but it says something that he even has one.
And yeah I love Waller (I think she's become overused in the comics but that's not the movies'/TV shows' fault), and absent a live-action turn by CCH Pounder it would be hard to find a better choice than Viola Davis. Say what you will about the first Suicide Squad but Margot Robbie and Viola Davis were really fucking fantastic casting choices. (I'm not sure if Jared Leto was their fault or if he was a Zack Snyder pick.)
Re: Friday's Favorite 100 Longform Video Media
I didn't hate Suicide Squad 1, in fact I think on balance I actually liked it. Davis and Robbie are absolute stand outs, and you know what, I liked Smith too. The film has a lot of problems but there's a lot good going on.
But yeah 2 is the superior film. You get Davis and Robbie again, plus Cena, Elba, and Magic Shark.
Yeah, precisely. It made me like him more, honestly. It's easy to be a good person when your life has been a good life, Peacemaker had the world's worst dad and was forced to fight and kill his own brother as a kid. It's a given he'd have an extremely twisted psyche, but his humanity still manages to shine through despite it all.
And yeah, Davis is a powerhouse. Here, I'll quote wikipedia:
C-C-C-C-C-Combo sourced!!!
I recently learned she was one of the few people to have the Triple Crown when I was looking up Maggie Smith.
But yeah 2 is the superior film. You get Davis and Robbie again, plus Cena, Elba, and Magic Shark.
And he's a huge part of what makes Peacemaker sympathetic. He seemed like a character with no redeeming qualities, too, but when you learn where he comes from and why he is the way he is, it changes everything. He really is trying to be good, he just doesn't know how; that's not his fault and it's a minor miracle that he's only as bad as he is. His moral compass is fucked, but it says something that he even has one.
Yeah, precisely. It made me like him more, honestly. It's easy to be a good person when your life has been a good life, Peacemaker had the world's worst dad and was forced to fight and kill his own brother as a kid. It's a given he'd have an extremely twisted psyche, but his humanity still manages to shine through despite it all.
And yeah, Davis is a powerhouse. Here, I'll quote wikipedia:
Davis is widely regarded as one of the greatest actors of her generation.[10][118][119][120][121][122][123][124]
C-C-C-C-C-Combo sourced!!!
For her stage work, Davis has won two Tony Awards, three Drama Desk Awards, an Obie Award, and a Theater World Award. She holds the distinction of becoming the first actress of color to win the Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series. Davis is the first African-American to win five Screen Actors Guild Awards.[126] Davis is also tied for the most film wins for an actress at the Screen Actors Guild Awards; and with six overall wins, she is the most awarded African American.[127] She has also received nominations for six Golden Globes Awards and three British Academy Film Awards, winning one of each, in addition to winning the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for her performance in Fences (2016). This led to her becoming the first black performer to achieve the Triple Crown of Acting by winning a competitive Oscar, Emmy and Tony.[128] She is also the first actress of color to have received four Academy Award nominations.[129]
I recently learned she was one of the few people to have the Triple Crown when I was looking up Maggie Smith.
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