X-Men

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Re: X-Men

Postby IGNORE ME » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:38 pm


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Re: X-Men

Postby IGNORE ME » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:39 pm

Because of the page break you might be coming in here wondering what Jojo has to do with X-Men to which I say, what doesn't it?

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Re: X-Men

Postby Friday » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:07 pm

...course, now there is going to be a season 6. And I think we can reasonably expect that we'll be seeing Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister again, so I guess season 5 did lay some groundwork for things to come. Maybe they'll follow up on that foreshadowing about Project Wideawake too? I gotta admit, I'd kinda love that; I don't give a shit about Project Wideawake but I would love the show just picking up exactly where it left off 25 years later and immediately grabbing for the most obscure and inconsequential threads it can.


Yeah the best part for sure is how it's being done so that it just continues right where it left off as if nothing had happened. Even moreso than them getting back a ton of the VAs (though that's great too.) I really have high hopes for it.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:09 am

Yeah, going over that list of returning VAs again --

Courtesy of an exclusive from The Wrap, the revival will be called X-Men ’97 and pick up from the X-Men: TAS finale. Furthermore many of the original voice actors will be reprising their roles including Cal Dodd (Wolverine), Lenore Zann (Rogue), Adrian Hough (Nightcrawler) George Buza (Beast), Christopher Britton (Mister Sinister), Catherine Disher (Jean Grey), Chris Potter (Gambit), Alison Sealy-Smith (Storm), and Alyson Court (Jubilee).


First off -- while Alyson Court is returning, she's not returning to the role of Jubilee; she's very justifiably had second thoughts about being a white lady playing a Chinese-American character.

Aside from that, here are some of the people who aren't on the list:

Cedric Smith (Xavier)
Norm Spencer (Cyclops) -- passed away August 2020
David Hemblem (Magneto) -- passed away November 2020
Philip Akin (Bishop)
Lawrence Bayne (Cable/Corsair/Captain America/Fabian Cortez)
Rick Bennett (Juggernaut/Colossus 1)
James Blendick (Apocalypse 2)
Lally Cadeau (Moira)
Len Carlson (President Kelly) -- passed away January 2006
Randall Carpenter (Mystique, season 1)
Robert Cate (Blob/Colossus 2)
John Colicos (Apocalypse 1) -- passed away March 2000
Jennifer Dale (Mystique, seasons 2-4)
Tony Daniels (Gambit 2)
David Fox (Sentinels/Master Mold) -- passed away November 2021
Don Francks (Sabretooth) -- passed away April 2016
Brett Halsey (Trask)
Barry Flatman (Gyrich)
Lorne Kennedy (Apocalypse 3)
Stephen Ouimette (Archangel)
John Stocker (Graydon Creed)
Marc Strange (Forge) -- passed away May 2012

While not being included in the casting announcement doesn't necessarily mean somebody's not coming back for the new show (though we can probably assume that being dead does), I'm guessing if the voice of Professor X were coming back he'd get billing somewhere before Mister Sinister or Nightcrawler, so we can probably assume most of those folks won't be back.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:39 pm

Where the intended finale, "Beyond Good and Evil", is a needlessly overstuffed four-parter, the actual finale, "Graduation Day", is a rushed-ass half-hour that really should have been at least a two-parter. Like I said, wasting precious episodes on bringing back Apocalypse, introducing Project Wideawake, and telling Mr. Sinister's origin story feels like something they wouldn't have done if they'd known the series was ending for realsies; this feels like they found out at the last minute and just threw something together.

It's actually not bad for all that. The animation is improving and it feels like they're starting to get a handle on the new character models. Though Beast's head continues to change size and Jean's bowling-ball titties are fucking distracting.

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The picture transfer is great and free of the various video problems that have plagued the last two seasons. Unfortunately, something's gone horribly wrong with the audio transfer and the entire thing sounds like it's playing underwater. Easily the worst sound of the entire series.

They try to pull in some continuity but don't do a very good job of it. They introduce the episode with a guy they tell us is Henry Gyrich but who doesn't look a thing like his previous character model

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and uh the last time we saw him he was a fugitive hiding in South America and so we're just not going to address that at all huh? Okay. Like, there's no reason this guy had to be Gyrich. They could have slapped the name of any random-ass mutant hater from the comics on him, and it would have made more sense.

Then we get to Magneto taking over Genosha and that is a plot point with a hell of a lot of potential but this episode just does not have time for it and I can't help wondering if it's a holdover from an earlier draft from when they still thought they were getting another season? Because if you cut Genosha and just had the X-Men tracking down Magneto in his Arctic base from "The Phalanx Covenant" that would save a good ten minutes and give the plot time to breathe -- though it would also cut way down on all the cameos that are one of the highlights of the episode.

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There's also a bit where Wolverine makes a dramatic proclamation that they don't intend to survive the trip, and...it really feels weird and doesn't fit at all; it's just kinda out of nowhere.

And then, speaking of attempting continuity callbacks and failing at them, they get there and Sunfire is like "Wait a minute, I know you! You've been to Genosha before!" but...they haven't? It's just Wolverine, Cyclops, and Jean, who have never been to Genosha. Gambit, Jubilee, and Storm encountered Sunfire there in season 1, and the rest of the team showed up in the Blackbird at the end of the episode to pick them up but they never got off the plane. And the only other time we've seen any X-Men go to Genosha it was Xavier, Beast, and Gambit alongside Magneto in "Sanctuary Part 1". Wolverine, Cyclops, and Jean have never been to Genosha except for landing for about 15 seconds so their teammates could get on the plane.

Anyway, blah blah Genosha, blah blah fight with Magneto, some standard X-Men nonsense where "magnetism" means whatever the fuck the writers want it to, then Xavier gets a nice monologue where he gives a personal goodbye to everybody on the team (including Morph, who's swung by to visit for the finale) and then takes off with Lilandra and then that's it, the end, series over.

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It's actually not a bad ending sequence; it does a nice job focusing on the cast and who they are and what Charles's relationship is with each of them. But man, there's just too much going on in this episode; they should have either dropped the Genosha plot or split it into a two-parter.

So that's it for now. Until 2023. Guess we'll see what they do with the status quo the series ended on -- is Magneto going to stick around and join the team? Is he going to go back to Genosha and become president of a nation of mutants? Both those storylines have happened at one time or another in the comics. I think Magneto as ruler of Genosha is a way more compelling story than Magneto as one of the X-Men (and one of my favorite Marvel storylines of all time involves international tensions between T'Challa, Namor, Doom, and Magneto as heads of their respective states), but we'll see what they decide to go with.

And speaking of storylines from the comics, will they adapt any that the original series didn't? And what are the parameters? Storylines from the '60s through the '90s only, or could we see some '90s-style adaptations of storylines from after the cartoon's original run? (I'm thinking of the Batman '66 comic here, which was based on the TV series but introduced later elements like Harley and Croc to that setting.)

And what other characters will we be seeing? Like, it's pretty weird that there's an entire X-Men TV series that ran for 5 years and never had Kitty Pryde on it, right? That's weird.

Guess we'll know in 2023.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Friday » Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:47 pm

While not being included in the casting announcement doesn't necessarily mean somebody's not coming back for the new show (though we can probably assume that being dead does),


Are you sure, Thad? This is the comics we're talking about.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:44 pm

Decided to give Pryde of the X-Men a rewatch.



I actually like these designs a lot better than the ones from the '92 series. The episode itself isn't terribly compelling and it's easy to see why it didn't get picked up for a series, but it's interesting as a road map for what came later. A number of the same people who worked on this one went on to launch the '92 series, notably Margaret Loesch, Larry Houston, and Will Meugniot. It's kind of fascinating comparing this pilot to "Night of the Sentinels" and seeing what they learned; they keep the part that works -- teenage girl recruited to the X-Men as a point-of-view character -- and ditch the part that doesn't -- way too goddamn many characters introduced in way too short a time.

Kicking off the '92 series with the Sentinels instead of Magneto was really a smart move (not least because kicking off with giant purple robots trying to kill mutants is a pretty good way to illustrate why Magneto isn't into the whole peace-and-love thing Xavier's going for), as was spacing it out across a two-parter. Really the more I think about the X-Men cartoon as a whole, now that I've actually watched the whole damn thing beginning to end, the more impressed I am by how good the first season is. It introduces the principals and what their deal is quickly and succinctly, and basically every important character in the series is introduced in the first season, give or take a Mr. Sinister. It dumps a hell of a lot of lore and exposition on us, not always very elegantly but generally pretty effectively and memorably.

I've started reading Previously On X-Men by Eric Lewald (who describes his role on the series as what would be called a "showrunner" today, though he also says he doesn't like that word because there are a whole lot of different people involved in running a show, not just one). I'm only about 25 pages in but so far it's pretty interesting. He talks a bit about network meddling and how he thinks that's what sunk Pryde of the X-Men (making special note of Wolverine getting an Australian accent as an attempt to cash in on the popularity of Crocodile Dundee), and says that one Fox executive suggested the X-Men drive around in a van solving mysteries. (He adds that he's not joking, that was a real suggestion.)

He also talks about how the most important thing about the X-Men cartoon was centering it on the character drama -- not that there isn't lots of action, but that the action isn't as important as how the characters feel about it. And that's the thing about X-Men -- it's fundamentally a soap opera in superhero drag.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Friday » Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:18 pm

it's fundamentally a soap opera in superhero drag.


I've made a similar observation about Game of Thrones (the show) being a soap in fantasy drag.

Which is fine, but a few of my friends got angry about it, even after I point out that like 90% of GoT is people sitting in a room talking.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Thu Dec 16, 2021 6:31 pm

There's overlap but I'd say the main element of a soap opera that GoT is missing is its open-endedness. There were certainly places where it meandered and spun its wheels, but it was always moving toward an endpoint.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:12 am

Thad wrote:Kicking off the '92 series with the Sentinels instead of Magneto was really a smart move (not least because kicking off with giant purple robots trying to kill mutants is a pretty good way to illustrate why Magneto isn't into the whole peace-and-love thing Xavier's going for)

I read a little farther into Lewald's book and was interested to learn that someone at Marvel felt the exact opposite of this. Lewald doesn't name names (we can rule out Bob Harras and Will Meugniot, who were both working on the cartoon series alongside Lewald, and Stan Lee, who had his own set of complaints a little later on), but he says that a high-ranking Marvel editor was really upset by the initial outline for the first season, and felt that Magneto should be introduced first not just because he's the primary X-Men villain but because we need to see Magneto first so we can understand why people would think the Sentinels were necessary. It also seems that the editor in question was really incensed by the idea that the show would choose to depict the US government as racist.

It's really fascinating to me how everything about that take is wrong. The show's got its warts, but the more I read about what people tried to get it to be and how the people in charge of it stuck to their guns, the more I respect it.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:23 pm

Lewald describes what he calls the "Pooh-Sex Test", which sounds like something dirty but he's actually using Winnie-the-Pooh and Sex and the City as examples of shows where everyone in the cast has a distinct voice and you can tell which character said any given line of dialogue just by reading it. You'd never mistake a Piglet line for a Tigger line, a Samantha line for a Carrie line, or a Wolverine line for a Storm line.

X-Men does a pretty fantastic job of that, I'd say (you'd know Gambit and Rogue even without their outraaaageous accents). And it played into decisions on which characters to use. At one point they planned to make Cable a principal character, but then they decided nah, we've already got a gruff rebel who plays by his own rules and is tired of everyone's shit, we don't need two.

And of course they made other changes to the cast as they went along just based on trying things and seeing what worked. Obviously they deliberately sidelined Beast for the first season, but all the writers loved writing dialogue for him so he got to be a more prominent character later on in the series. (Plus, Beast presents unique storytelling opportunities because, out of everyone in the principal cast, he's the only mutant who can't pass for a Homo sapiens.)

One thing that pleases me about Lewald's work is that he names Kirby, Lee (in that order!), Wein, Cockrum, Claremont, Byrne, and Lee early on as the biggest influences on the show. The show itself often does a pretty lousy job of giving credit where it's due (hell, remember how I recently noticed several of the last batch of episodes don't even credit the VAs?) so it's nice to see Lewald putting in the effort to do so.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Lady » Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:51 pm

did someone say pooh sex https://www.reddit.com/r/rupaulsdragrac ... gay_times/

the performance was great in person

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Re: X-Men

Postby Friday » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:07 pm

I read a little farther into Lewald's book and was interested to learn that someone at Marvel felt the exact opposite of this. Lewald doesn't name names (we can rule out Bob Harras and Will Meugniot, who were both working on the cartoon series alongside Lewald, and Stan Lee, who had his own set of complaints a little later on), but he says that a high-ranking Marvel editor was really upset by the initial outline for the first season, and felt that Magneto should be introduced first not just because he's the primary X-Men villain but because we need to see Magneto first so we can understand why people would think the Sentinels were necessary. It also seems that the editor in question was really incensed by the idea that the show would choose to depict the US government as racist.


Sigh.

The entire point of Magneto is that he's a response to autocratic authoritarian governments. Which are pretty much 100% of the time racist as fuck.

He's a literal fucking jewish concentration camp survivor.

Having him be the villain that prompted Sentinels instead of him doing what he does because Sentinels were built and used doesn't just the miss the point, it misses the point so hard you should immediately head to the nearest hospital and get a cat scan because your brain has been at least 30% replaced by a malignant tumor and you need to get that checked.

Plus it undermines his introduction in the show, when he fucking dismantles a wall to free Beast from jail. Which may be honestly one of the greatest character introductions ever. It perfectly shows what he's about (and what Beast's about, too, when he refuses to leave.)

Magneto has seen what happens in governments where people just peacefully protest. He knows that direct action is the only way. Beast (and Prof X) still *believe in America* and are willing to play by the rules and try to win "morally". It's the clash between these styles that makes Magneto a good character.

And yes, that actually ties into that editor being upset that the show would depict the US government as racist. Because in his (and every Trump voter's) mind, the US can do no wrong. They are the good guys. Some of them simply naively believe that "it can't happen here" and the rest are actively working to make it happen here. Ignoring of course that it has already happened here, multiple times, with slavery, Native Americans, and the Japanese camps. To name a few.

Just in the last year I learned that my city, Chico, had its own miniature trail of tears. The idea that the American Government isn't and cannot be racist is beyond naive.
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Re: X-Men

Postby IGNORE ME » Fri Dec 17, 2021 7:45 pm

I think it's no big revelation that the issue wasn't just close to home for a lot of writers, it was close to their desks too.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:14 pm

Friday wrote:Having him be the villain that prompted Sentinels instead of him doing what he does because Sentinels were built and used doesn't just the miss the point, it misses the point so hard you should immediately head to the nearest hospital and get a cat scan because your brain has been at least 30% replaced by a malignant tumor and you need to get that checked.


It's more complicated than that, as X-Men continuity always is.

In the comics, the Sentinels showed up after Magneto. Magneto first appears in X-Men #1, the Sentinels in #14.

But having recently reread both stories, I don't think it's accurate to say that the Sentinels were created as a response to Magneto, either. Trask's justifications for hunting down mutants are straight-up Protocols of the Elders of Zion shit printed in a newspaper that puts its front page on the back for some reason.

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You are very much not meant to look at that and think that Trask is raising valid concerns here because of Magneto.

If you're an editor at Marvel, someone whose job is to know X-Men continuity and correct continuity errors when you see them, your first reaction to someone saying "Magneto is a reaction to the Sentinels" might very well be "No it isn't; that's impossible, the Sentinels didn't even show up until two years after Magneto."

But.

Movies and TV adaptations aren't the comics. It's not a TV series' job to look at the last several decades of stories and retell them the same way they happened the first time. It's a TV series' job to look at the last several decades of stories, evaluate them in the aggregate, figure out what works and what doesn't, and come up with an idea to adapt them (1) to a new, completely different medium where, for example, you do have to worry about how long words take to say, and (2) look at how you would retell these stories from the beginning with the benefit of hindsight and understanding everything that changed over the years.

Magneto couldn't have been a response to the Sentinels in the comics (at least, not without throwing some retcons in there). But that doesn't mean he couldn't be in some other continuity. And it certainly doesn't mean that's not a better story.

I was talking earlier about how one of the defining aspects of a soap opera is its open-endedness. There's no grand long-term plan, to a large extent writers are just making things up as they go along. The same is true of ongoing open-ended comic series (not all comic series, but series like X-Men and most other Big Two superhero comics). Kirby didn't have a grand plan for the X-Men; he had some influences and themes he wanted to work with but he basically made it up as he went along. He couldn't have conceived of Magneto existing as a response to the Sentinels because he hadn't created the Sentinels yet.

And -- and this is an extremely important detail -- Claremont's Magneto is so different from Kirby's as to effectively be a completely different character. Kirby's Magneto is not a Holocaust survivor; just the opposite, he's a Hitler figure. (Now of course there's no inherent reason he can't be both -- "Magneto doesn't realize he's become what he most hates" is pretty much where the character was in the '90s, which is probably what the unnamed editor had in his head when he objected to the outline for the X-Men cartoon series -- but that was neither Kirby's take nor Claremont's. Or, not always Claremont's; he was on X-Men for a long damn time and took Magneto in a number of different directions.) "The point of Magneto" is a question that's very much subject to debate, and depends on what point in the series we're talking about and who's writing him.

All that said: Lewald and company got it exactly right. Lewald may have had an advantage in that he was coming at all this fresh, he didn't have a detailed knowledge of X-Men history and lore, he could just take an overview and pick out what elements made sense together.

And while he was working with people who were more versed in X-Men history than he was, they were also experienced TV writers who understood how TV adaptations work. Will Meugniot had worked on Batman: TAS, so he had some experience with a superhero show that took existing storylines and distilled them down to what worked best about them.

All that said: starting with the Sentinels and then introducing Magneto later was a great fucking idea, and it seems obvious in hindsight. But it wasn't necessarily obvious at the time.

Take a look at the last go-'round, at Pryde of the X-Men, and it kicks right off with the Brotherhood of Too Goddamn Many Mutants. Magneto's front-and-center but you've also got White Queen, Toad, Blob, Pyro, and Juggernaut. And that was the obvious choice at the time. Starting the '92 series with the Sentinels instead of Magneto? That would have sounded fucking crazy at the time. Like making a Batman cartoon and the Joker's not even in the first episode and instead you've got some kind of obscure-ass third-stringer like Man-Bat or something.

I think it takes a particular talent to take that kind of big-picture overview of something, to really look at the characters and the themes and the story you want to tell, and to take it in the direction those things dictate instead of going the obvious route based on who the most popular characters are in the source material.

And yes, that actually ties into that editor being upset that the show would depict the US government as racist. Because in his (and every Trump voter's) mind, the US can do no wrong. They are the good guys. Some of them simply naively believe that "it can't happen here" and the rest are actively working to make it happen here. Ignoring of course that it has already happened here, multiple times, with slavery, Native Americans, and the Japanese camps. To name a few.


Lewald's response to the memo is somewhat less forceful than that -- he basically says the Sentinels turning violent are the result of a few bad apples, that Gyrich and Trask go rogue and aren't acting on behalf of the government anymore. I think that's nonsense, but to be fair, I think it's the line Lewald had to push in order to get the show made. He didn't just have to placate Marvel, he had to placate broadcast standards and practices. I think he said what he had to say in order to make the show he wanted to make. And the impression I got from watching that show was definitely not that the US government is basically good, there are just a few bad apples.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Thad » Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:31 pm

I'll add that Pryde of the X-Men doesn't do a bad job of introducing anti-mutant racism; right there in the first scene you've got a guard mistreating Magneto and calling him a filthy mutie. And Kitty Pryde's reaction to learning she's a mutant is to say that mutants are freaks and then spend the rest of the episode being shitty to Nightcrawler because of his appearance, until she sees how heroic and selfless he is and realizes the error of her ways. That's not actually a bad way to introduce the themes of bigotry and oppression -- and even internalized self-loathing, which is pretty heavy stuff for a Saturday morning cartoon in 1989 -- but I think we can all agree that giant killer robots are objectively better.

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Re: X-Men

Postby IGNORE ME » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:44 pm

Prescient, really.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Büge » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:52 pm

Thad wrote:Image


No, Charles. All you're doing is giving Trask a soapbox and scapegoat.

It seems remarkably quaint and naïve to think that a public debate would do anything but foment more anti-mutant sentiment.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Friday » Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:46 pm

It's more complicated than that, as X-Men continuity always is.

In the comics, the Sentinels showed up after Magneto. Magneto first appears in X-Men #1, the Sentinels in #14.


Wow, huh. My knowledge of X-Men comes -almost- entirely from the cartoon, so it's interesting to learn that Magneto wasn't originally what I think he is.

No, Charles. All you're doing is giving Trask a soapbox and scapegoat.

It seems remarkably quaint and naïve to think that a public debate would do anything but foment more anti-mutant sentiment.


The kneejerk reaction of the reasonable minded is to debate the unreasonable minded to show them the error of their ways. "Platforming" is a relatively recent concept, or at least, I don't remember anyone talking about how it's bad until the last 15ish years. A common mistake I see good people making is refusing to believe in bad faith actors.

but I think we can all agree that giant killer robots are objectively better.


I love how goofy/awesome Sentinels are, while still representing the police.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Mongrel » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:11 pm

Büge wrote:It seems remarkably quaint and naïve to think that a public debate would do anything but foment more anti-mutant sentiment.


I actually can't recall if that's exactly what happened in the original Kirby/Lee run or not. Thad?
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