The Star Trek Thread

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Thad
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:11 pm

JD wrote:JMS wrote entire seasons by himself, then had a cameo where he's a patient being wheeled in after collapsing from exhaustion, still clutching his keyboard. They cut the scene, but it's the perfect representation both of Babylon 5's dedication to a single continuous creator's vision, and how readily it throws in ridiculously cheesy moments.

I've never seen B5 but I keep meaning to. I like JMS, and I've liked damn-near everything of his I've watched or read. (I didn't even hate the premise of the "Superman walks across America" story he started and then didn't stick around to finish; I thought it had potential if it had been executed with more thought and care.)

New series coming. Which I suppose as a reboot with a new cast could potentially solve the problem of wooden acting.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Mothra » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:09 pm

Was listening to an interview with one of the Enterprise writers on TGD the other day and this stuck out to me:

  • Rick Berman described to the writer’s team that Voyager had gotten “too sterile” and “had too much technobabble” and that he wanted to bring back Kirk-style swashbuckling to the series, doing what he described as “The Right Stuff in Star Trek”.
  • This guy - Chris Black - was a writer for like Sliders and Cleopatra 2525, and talked a bit about how he found it appealing how William Shatner was a bit of a narcissist and how you need that overabundance of confidence to be a captain on Star Trek.
  • He described the writing process for these rapid Enterprise seasons as “doing triage” where “you’d sometimes have to leave one to die if it was too far gone so you could concentrate on the ones you could save.”
This guy left the show at the end of season 3 due to him not wanting to renew his contract, which I have to imagine might’ve explained why the writing suddenly improved in the final season. Maybe most of the writers had the same thing happen.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Mothra » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:10 pm

Regarding SNW, I enjoyed this latest storybook ep quite a bit. It’s like, what would be one of the worst TOS episodes done very well. I really like that they are embracing every weird-ass, embarrassing thing TOS did and championing it. It’s the same in-spirit celebration of the source material that works well in Lower Decks.

That said, the ending to this episode is deranged in a way that is very much in the spirit of Discovery and Picard, where you’re just like, “what happened with this arc?”. It’s so weird that the same writer of the ep that introduces M’Benga’s daughter’s story is also the same writer that resolves it here. This arc lasted, what, four episodes, and was only referenced in one of them? Pretty weird clang at the end of this, but, whatever, didn’t hurt the ep.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Crick » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:42 pm

The ending is completely weird! It's not really philosophical, like the one child sacrifice episode, and M’Benga's arc seems REALLY odd. And the need to have the adult daughter come back at the end to assure everyone "no no, this totally rules, you made the right decision", I suspect so that he's not an emotionally devastated wreck for the rest of the season.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:47 pm

Mothra wrote:It’s the same in-spirit celebration of the source material that works well in Lower Decks.

I've been impressed by how well both shows have managed to leverage continuity for people who get it while remaining accessible to people who don't.

You don't have to have seen Balance of Terror to follow the plot of Quality of Mercy, but you'll get more out of it if you have. I appreciate details like switching which of the just-married couple dies in the alternate timeline.

(There were a couple of clunky bits of exposition -- I wish they'd trusted the audience to understand Spock's significance in the conflict with the Romulans without having to spell it out in dialogue -- but for the overwhelming majority of the episode, the continuity bits didn't interfere with clear storytelling for casual viewers, and making it accessible to casual viewers didn't slow things down for audiences who are already familiar with the source material.)

I thought for a second the partially-obscured figure in the admiral's uniform was going to turn out to be Shatner. I wonder if they ever considered that. On balance (of terror!) I don't think he'd have worked as well, so it's just as well they didn't, but I'm curious if that was ever part of the plan and, if so, how far it got before they changed it.

I'm kinda ambivalent about how they chose to address the ongoing "Pike has to face his fate" arc; on the one hand, the reveal that things are going to go horribly wrong unless he does things exactly the way he did in TOS -- not just in the timeline we see in this episode, but evidently in every other timeline where he tries to change his fate -- is pure contrivance; on the other hand, of course he'd try to find a way out that saves everybody, and I can see why they felt the need to address the question of why he doesn't.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Mothra » Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:29 pm

Ugh, I did not care for that finale. This felt a lot lot lot like an idea some kind of Berman-style jagoff had and made the show execute on. Really clanged with everything they've built throughout SWN so far.

I looked into some of the behind-the-scenes stuff, and sure enough, "from the start" they "really wanted to do something big to introduce Kirk", and they had this idea to re-do Balance of Terror, copying all the same beats and camera angles and yadda yadda. As you'd expect, it's just a weird copy of the classic TOS ep, where anything they bring back from the original (the comet, the speech by the Romulan Commander, the racist comms officer) is unearned and just happens. Why is Ortegas really racist against the roms now? Because there was a guy like that in the original. Why did the Romulan Commander give Pike the same glowing passionate statement he gave to Kirk? Because he did it in the original. Why did they go through the whole comet sequence, except this time, it didn't work for some reason? Because they did a comet thing in the original.

The message was also very weird. It is either, "You are fated to die this way, it is your destiny to go into the beepy chair and Kirk's cosmic destiny is to command the Enterprise", which sucks, because it's the usual Chosen One shit, OR, it is "Pike wasn't the right man for the job here, and his risks taken toward peace were a mistake, and like the Battle of the Binary Stars, the Federation's unwillingness to act like their enemies and attack first will doom humanity". Both of those are some weak-ass ideas to build a finale around.

Then yeah, the "big armada shows up against the other big armada" thing from Picard happened again, which always sucks, and sure enough, it sucked here, because it was unearned. Kirk's actor is also pretty rough, but I can tell he's trying.

For positives, everything looks great as always, particularly the Romulan plasma weapon whenever it hits something. I loved seeing Mathazar as a Romulan, and he did great, even if the story clanged for me. Ethan Peck once again nails it as a later, more stoic Spock, closer to TOS. In the behind-the-scenes thing I watched, Peck said he was trying to capture Nemoy's "monolithic" aspect to Spock in early TOS, and he does a great job. I also really liked seeing post-therapy La'an happy, that was a great touch, and a great change in attitude without changing the character at all. Felt very true.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Thu Jul 21, 2022 4:36 pm

Mothra wrote:I looked into some of the behind-the-scenes stuff, and sure enough, "from the start" they "really wanted to do something big to introduce Kirk", and they had this idea to re-do Balance of Terror, copying all the same beats and camera angles and yadda yadda.


The most baffling thing about that is there's no reason for Kirk to be there. Like, he just happens to show up where the Enterprise is during a pivotal moment from TOS, even though he's not the captain of the Enterprise?

The message was also very weird. It is either, "You are fated to die this way, it is your destiny to go into the beepy chair and Kirk's cosmic destiny is to command the Enterprise", which sucks, because it's the usual Chosen One shit, OR, it is "Pike wasn't the right man for the job here, and his risks taken toward peace were a mistake, and like the Battle of the Binary Stars, the Federation's unwillingness to act like their enemies and attack first will doom humanity". Both of those are some weak-ass ideas to build a finale around.


A third, but also weak, interpretation is that it's just butterfly effect shit -- that any deviation has the potential to massively alter the timeline just by sheer chance. (Nero blew up the Kelvin, now Spock is dating Uhura.)

That's unsatisfying too, and I think "we can't change the timeline because..." is an inherently unsatisfying premise, because it's trying to give an in-universe explanation for something whose real explanation is "we don't wanna." It's fiction; the result of any given behavior by the characters is going to be whatever the writers want it to be (and, in the case of a corporate-owned franchise like Star Trek, whatever the producers and network are willing to sign off on). These kinds of stories can have interesting character ramifications -- Star Trek loves it some no-win situations -- but from a story logic perspective, they always kick my suspension of disbelief right in the teeth. The characters can't alter the timeline because the writers or producers don't want to. That's it, that's the reason, any other explanation is a post-hoc justification and the audience knows it.

Then yeah, the "big armada shows up against the other big armada" thing from Picard happened again, which always sucks, and sure enough, it sucked here, because it was unearned.


I liked it better here because it was a bluff. Allowing that Kirk's being in this episode at all doesn't really make any sense, trying to bluff his way out is a very Kirk solution.

Kirk's actor is also pretty rough, but I can tell he's trying.


It seems like he's trying to use Shatner's cadence but tone down the overacting. I don't know that it really worked for me, but I doubt this is the last we'll see of him, so maybe he'll get a chance to grow into the role.

He does kinda look like what you'd get if you merged Shatner's and Pine's faces, so that's kinda funny.

For positives, everything looks great as always, particularly the Romulan plasma weapon whenever it hits something. I loved seeing Mathazar as a Romulan, and he did great, even if the story clanged for me. Ethan Peck once again nails it as a later, more stoic Spock, closer to TOS. In the behind-the-scenes thing I watched, Peck said he was trying to capture Nemoy's "monolithic" aspect to Spock in early TOS, and he does a great job. I also really liked seeing post-therapy La'an happy, that was a great touch, and a great change in attitude without changing the character at all. Felt very true.


Yeah, it's a good cast and crew and they all did good work. It looked great.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Sharkey » Tue Jul 26, 2022 3:11 am

I didn't dig the end of Magical Storybook Clusterfuck but a bunch of my Xer friends who are parents did so shrug. I love that they did that kind of ep, though. I think I like these shows best when they're campy procedural workplace dramedy or whatever and I appreciate it that with this and Spock doing a freaky friday with his girlfriend they got to lean into the cheesy tos/tng style nonsense.
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Büge » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:06 pm



In other news, I just learned there's a Captain Janeway statue in Indiana.
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:25 am

So a TOS-era Redshirt crash-landed on a planet, and 100 years later the descendants of the civilization don't quite remember how to pronounce "Starfleet" but still know how to do a Shatner impression?

You know what? I totally buy that.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Upthorn » Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:18 am

I'm missing some context on that. Thad, can you clarify what episode/movie/comic/novel your most recent post is about?

Edit: Okay, it's the most recent Prodigy. Got it.
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby beatbandito » Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:59 am

Much like Upthorn right now, I felt left out by context for most of the episode. I ultimately decided it must not have been tied to a specific TOS episode, since they're usually not very subtle about those. Didn't hurt my enjoyment, either, it was a fun story.

However, the narrative of the new episodes of ST: Prodigy have disappointed me with the starfleet perspectives. A big part of my interest in the original run was not knowing where or when we are in the trek universe. Turns out it's a few years past the main series, and within spitting distance of starfleet space. I was hoping there'd be a little bit more mystery there for a bit longer.

Also more directly disappointed that the starfleet plot is that Chakotay is missing and the ship he was commanding is up to no good. And I highly doubt anyone will even mention the word Maquis.
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:04 pm

beatbandito wrote:Much like Upthorn right now, I felt left out by context for most of the episode. I ultimately decided it must not have been tied to a specific TOS episode, since they're usually not very subtle about those.


Yeah, same. I haven't seen all of TOS but I've seen multiple episodes where Galileo blew up and this didn't fit with any of them. "Redshirt disappears with the shuttle and is never found" is the kind of thing I could see being an Act 1 plot beat on TOS setting up some other plot point or conflict, but it kinda seems like the lack of resolution would have been frustrating

However, the narrative of the new episodes of ST: Prodigy have disappointed me with the starfleet perspectives. A big part of my interest in the original run was not knowing where or when we are in the trek universe. Turns out it's a few years past the main series, and within spitting distance of starfleet space. I was hoping there'd be a little bit more mystery there for a bit longer.


Yeah, I guess continuity is what most Trek fans want, but...this is a show for ten-year-olds. It's hard for me to see them clamoring for more Voyager references.

Gwyn's amnesia was a weird narrative deadend, too; it lasted one episode and then she got her memories back. Maybe the point was just to set up her father's amnesia, which looks like it'll play out over a longer period and is potentially more interesting. It doesn't appear to be a ruse; it doesn't look like he's intentionally leading Janeway into a trap, it looks like he's legitimately struggling to remember. "Amnesiac villain becomes one of the good guys, and then regains his memories" is a classic narrative hook and would make the Starfleet storyline a lot more interesting than it's been up to this point.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:19 pm

Mothra wrote:Then yeah, the "big armada shows up against the other big armada" thing from Picard happened again, which always sucks, and sure enough, it sucked here, because it was unearned.

And the Prodigy finale makes it official: every single current Star Trek show has done this fucking trope now.

I'll at least give SNW and Prodigy some points for subverting it -- SNW with it not being a real armada but just a good old-fashioned Corbomite Maneuver, and Prodigy by pointing out that hey actually there are strategic downsides to putting a shitload of your ships all in the same place!

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Büge » Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:18 pm

Thad wrote:a good old-fashioned Corbomite Maneuver


but SNW is a prequel show, so the Corbomite Maneuver hasn't been invented...
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:22 am

Ah, but that particular episode was an alternate-timeline version of The Balance of Terror. One assumes that, no matter the timeline, this is not the first time Kirk has tried to bluff his way through a no-win scenario.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Mothra » Fri Jan 13, 2023 2:55 am

I enjoyed that Prodigy finale, they did a good job keeping true to these characters all the way through.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Upthorn » Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:48 pm

Mothra wrote:I enjoyed that Prodigy finale, they did a good job keeping true to these characters all the way through.

The Prodigy (season?) finale was good, but it would have been better without the last second addition of a giant armada pointlessly escorting the Dauntless to intercept a single ship.

Granted, as it's explicitly a kid's show, it's the most justifiable instance of "just make a giant spectacle at the end."
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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Mothra » Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:08 pm

I appreciate how Dal never stops being, like, a teen, and never stops fucking things up all the time. He muddles through, he means well, and I just appreciate how they write him like a teen.

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Re: The Star Trek Thread

Postby Thad » Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:43 pm

I like the whole cast a lot. Dal's arc has been interesting, and I like that they're addressing the discrimination against augments that we've discussed earlier.

But LBR Gwyn should have been captain.

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