Star Wars

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Blossom
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Blossom » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:37 am

Mongrel wrote:The script keeps trying to tell us that Holdo's a military genius, but the person they show us is an absolute fucking idiot.


Because she ... doesn't take the time to explain the details of a high-level plan to a low-ranking pilot who just got demoted, for disobeying orders and getting a lot of other pilots killed?
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Mongrel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:49 am

Blossom wrote:
Mongrel wrote:The script keeps trying to tell us that Holdo's a military genius, but the person they show us is an absolute fucking idiot.


Because she ... doesn't take the time to explain the details of a high-level plan to a low-ranking pilot who just got demoted, for disobeying orders and getting a lot of other pilots killed?

A low-ranking pilot that she and the other senior leadership repeatedly state they're grooming to become a future leader of their movement?


I mean, either Poe really is an idiot (which is plausible, its not like he ends up with much characterization or personality outside of "cocky flyboy") - in which case why is the senior command involved AT ALL in his "teachable moments" instead of someone much lower in the chain of command who'd be his direct supervisor? Or he really is future leadership material, in which case my previous arguments, blah blah blah.

Poe legitimately thinks they are all going to die for nothing, and is presented with no literally nothing other than a claimed reputation to contradict this. How is mutiny not a sensible course of action given what he knows? Even if he completely believes in the reputation, is it sensible for him to extend that to assuming Holdo is completely infallible? Given that others look to Poe for leadership regardless of his rank, him doing nothing under the circumstances seems not just wrong, but grossly irresponsible.

If you want to teach a positive lesson about good listening skills, it helps for the teacher to demonstrate by example. And people saying outright "We think we're all going to DIE." is a pretty fucking important message for the anyone to listen to, teacher or not.
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars

Postby beatbandito » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:36 am

Poe spends the movie with an older lady who breaks down his confidence, tells him it's stupid to go with your gut, and that he has to trust women to lead him.

Finn spends the movie with a character described by her creator as "the kind of girl I was into in high school" who starts by telling Poe not to follow his intuition, stops him from getting infatuated by Benicio Del Toro, then almost sacrifices herself / what the scene was implying would be the entire rebel base so she could make out with him.

Blossom why do you support characters that only existed to deny the two male leads' homosexuality?
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Blossom
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Blossom » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:41 am

Again, literally five minutes prior Leia demoted him for disobeying her orders, and getting most of their pilots killed in the process. Zero lines in the script where anyone "repeatedly state over and over they're grooming to become a future leader of their movement".

Instead, the first interaction Poe has with Holdo is to mansplain her situation to her, and try to shove himself into the forefront of planning like he's in charge. Remember that bit?

POE: That's Admiral Holdo? Battle of Chyron Belt, Admiral Holdo? Not what I expected. Vice Admiral? Commander Dameron. With our current fuel consumption... there is a very limited amount time... That we will stay out of range of those Star Destroyers.
AMILYN HOLDO: Very kind to make me aware.
POE: Let's get me those fuel projections. And we need to shake them before we find a new base, so... What's our plan?
AMILYN HOLDO: Our plan, captain? Not commander, right? Wasn't it Leia's last official act to demote you? Because of your dreadnought plan... Where we lost our entire bombing fleet?
POE: "Captain." "Commander." You can call me whatever you like. I just want to know what's going on.
AMILYN HOLDO: Of course you do. I understand. I've dealt with plenty of trigger happy flyboys like you... You are impulsive. Dangerous. And the last thing we need right now. So stick to your post... and follow my orders.


And if he'd done exactly that, it would have worked. Poe thinking he knows better than the women above him is the source of most of the Rebellion's problems in the movie. He acts like Leia having a soft spot for him - wonder why that is, wonder who a reckless, impulsive hotshot pilot reminds her of - means he gets to do whatever he wants, even after Leia gets sick of the act. He doesn't get to always be right just because he's the protagonist, and he doesn't get to always be right just because he's a man disagreeing with a woman. The whole movie is an explicit rejection of both of those concepts.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Mongrel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:06 am

That entire exchange only reflects horribly on both characters.

This isn't about gender IMO, it's about leadership in general. But even if it was, Holdo's response of rubbing Poe's nose in what's at the heart a legit concern (WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE) with as much condescension (not just hostility, but full-blast contempt) as she can muster is still reinforcing an inane stereotype. It's absurd that even after two cruisers are blown up, Holdo still won't tell anyone anything.

What's the worst possible outcome there for Holdo to at least give him, perhaps not secrets above his pay grade, but at least some reason to have confidence in her?

Or... shit... at least tell *someone*? Like is Poe the only one who might have doubts about what Holdo is doing? how is there a mutiny for him to lead if he's not a leader and there aren't others who agree with him enough to cross the vice-admiral?

EDIT: As for Leia grooming Poe, the first movie establishes he's a prominent figure (okay, fair we can disregard that).

But mainly in that scene you mention where she slaps Poe, she says "I need you to learn that." Why? Why Poe in particular? If he's just some stupid flyboy, why does the leader of the Rebellion want him to grow? Just because she sees Han in him? Is Leia incapable of separating her personal history from her responsibilities? Nothing she's done previously has shown her to have that particular flaw and in fact the scene where she and Holdo say they like him isn't until near the end.
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars

Postby beatbandito » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:30 am

Holdo is a feminist icon because she was written to be catty to Poe until he starts a mutiny.

Blossom why aren't you taking my post seriously? I provided more individual examples than yours and I think it's important considering we know homosexual erasure was definitely present in the next movie.
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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Mongrel » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:38 am

Man, I will say that reading the script without the visuals, the story comes off as INCREDIBLY incoherent.
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MarsDragon
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Re: Star Wars

Postby MarsDragon » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:46 am

Honestly, given the rest of the film, you're going to have a hard time convincing me anything past "WHAT A TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEST" was in play for that entire conflict.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:54 pm

Reminder that Patrick Stewart stars in the Star Trek franchise, not Star Wars. Star Trek is the one with tribbles, whereas Star Wars is the one where Rosario Dawson will be playing Ahsoka Tano on The Mandalorian. (Article has some spoilers for episode 9, Rebels, and The Mandalorian.)

Incidentally, (ep 9 spoilers) Ahsoka's is one of the voices we hear when Rey summons the power of all the Jedi from the past, so...kinda seems like she dies sometime before then.

And (Mandalorian and Rebels spoilers) Rebels ends with Sabine leaving with Ahsoka, and Mandalorian season 1 ends with a baddie showing up wielding the Darksaber, so odds of seeing Sabine seem to be increasing.

Also I've been watching Clone Wars and I'm almost done with season 1. Some thoughts:

Most of the episodes are pretty lightweight and kiddie, but, on balance, not as kiddie as the first season of Rebels. I'm looking forward to the show getting deeper as it goes. (I've seen some pretty good episodes from...I think season 3?)

I also like how when the show breaks out the big guns, it doesn't kid around. The first episode where Yoda takes on an army almost singlehanded (he has 3 clone troopers with him) does a way better job of showing his prowess as a warrior than all that bouncing around in Attack of the Clones, and when Mace Windu finally does something other than stand there looking serious, the show similarly manages to succeed where the prequels failed at showing why he's supposed to be such a big deal.

I quite like Cham Syndulla (Hera's father) being the guy whose response to the Republic's offer of help against the Separatist occupation is "And then we'll be fighting your occupation next." Dude knows what's up.

And I love how well a conflict between two armies of mostly-identical warriors works out from a budget-saving perspective. Obviously George Lucas wasn't thinking of saving money on CG models when he threw out "the Clone Wars" as a phrase in the original Star Wars; it was just something that sounded cool. But it sure worked out nicely for that.

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Blossom
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Blossom » Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:36 am

Thad wrote:Reminder that Patrick Stewart stars in the Star Trek franchise, not Star Wars. Star Trek is the one with tribbles, whereas Star Wars is the one where Rosario Dawson will be playing Ahsoka Tano on The Mandalorian. (Article has some spoilers for episode 9, Rebels, and The Mandalorian.)


Yeah, not a fan of them recasting the character with violent transphobe. There's already an outcry, though; perhaps they'll listen and change the casting.
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Thad
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:12 am

Yikes. Yeah, that kinda seems like a more important story than "Ahsoka's gonna be on Mandalorian". But I guess geeking out over Disney's latest bit of fan service while not reporting the part where it's actually terrible is kind of the entertainment media's thing.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Mongrel » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:16 am

Jeez. There's assault and then there's stuff like that article describes. It's almost amazing they didn't chain him to a car and drag him around the neighbourhood given what else they were doing.
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars

Postby beatbandito » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:41 pm

Thad wrote:Also I've been watching Clone Wars and I'm almost done with season 1. Some thoughts:

This (and working from home) inspired me to give a rewatch to everything.

'Star Wars: Clone Wars' (2d animated) first season holds up really well. It's basically just really good samurai jack fight scenes in star wars universe. Season 2 (both seasons are an hour long total) is a lot weaker. You start to get the "villain of the week" grievous and too much talking for what it tries to do.

'The Clone Wars' I think has a pretty good season 1. As mentioned there's a lot of visual and plot differences between the different jedi, something that starts to muddle together quickly when Anakin takes over as lead. Season 2 gets better and has some more realistic war stuff and themes, and Ahsoka starts to take over as lead. Season 3 is definitely where it gets teeth. Mass civilian deaths, just-out-of-frame executions of surrendering soldiers, and similar stuff I didn't even expect and I've seen the entire series before. Also by now Ahsoka is pretty much the main jedi in any jedi-centric episode, but the clones get a lot of episodes to themselves now too (that started in season 2 and was true of season 1 too, but there's a real progress with the clones as a 'species' their behaviors and attitudes seem to grow with the series, which makes sense since they're still new and veterans are becoming more common than fresh troops) but we also get too many episodes where young versions of original trilogy characters show up. I'm in season 4 now and just finished the only storyline I remembered, it's season 4 episodes 7-10 and while there was more filler I had forgotten, it still stands out for everything it does and how it keeps getting darker and darker.

I'll probably burn out before I get through season 6 at this rate. But I'm not sure if I should dive right into season 7 after or give Rebels another go first, too. At least the episodes where clones show up.
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beatbandito
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Re: Star Wars

Postby beatbandito » Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:09 pm

beatbandito wrote:I'll probably burn out before I get through season 6 at this rate. But I'm not sure if I should dive right into season 7 after or give Rebels another go first, too. At least the episodes where clones show up.

Boy, did I ever underestimate my ability to binge media.

I had forgotten season six was already separated from the rest by time and release platform,it really holds up well as a season. Maybe not the best stories, but it feels like an ending. They got canceled or whatever and knew they had one more season and dedicated it to like 3 multi-episode stories that tie everything up nicely for both Revenge of the Sith and the original trilogy.

Then there's season 7.

I stopped watching after episode 3,the end of the first story arc. Despite being a pretty dark subject I couldn't help but keep comparing it to a Saturday morning cartoon. Every other season, almost every episode with maybe a few exceptions that manage to blend in, feels weighty, real in a certain way. C3PO and Jar-Jar maybe be goofing around with tiny dinosaur people, but the clones are fighting a war besides them. Jedi younglings disguise themselves as a circus show for a rescue mission but you're waiting for the other shoe to drop and the consequences of their actions.

Season 7 immediately opens with a Overwatch lineup of individual, original characters with their own hasbro line of weapons and armor. When they attack anyone but droids we see they're still mostly okay with a fucking daffy duck soot-stained face. It is... Not good.

Anyway maybe it gets better? If someone else watches and says there's ultimately some good stuff to see or important developments I'll give it a go, but I wouldn't recommend it.
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:06 pm

Still on season 2 at the moment.

The "save the Jedi younglings" plot really feels dark with the knowledge that the hero is eventually going to murder all those children anyway hanging over it.

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:00 pm

Continuing to wend my way through season 2.

Scattered thoughts:

I like that they're spending more time on Anakin's slide to the Dark Side -- stuff like his willingness to torture prisoners (and of course a snippet of the Imperial March has to play every time something like that happens).

I watched The Deserter years ago and, on a re-watch, it's still my favorite of any episode I've seen up to this point. I guess I've just got a thing for deserters. (Plus, it's interesting viewing it again in the context of knowing that -- Rebels spoilers -- Rex himself deserts and goes into hiding rather than obey Order 66.)

And I just got to The Mandalore Plot and I'm finally beginning to get a sense that this is really the major story arc that winds its way through all the Star Wars TV series. (Well, this, Rebels, and The Mandalorian. I haven't seen any of The Resistance and I gather it doesn't really do much to advance any major arcs.) I found that the Mandalore arc on Rebels went on too long and was too inscrutable, but I really liked this episode and it makes me curious to revisit the Rebels arc once I'm done with Clone Wars; maybe I'll find it more engaging with the full background.

In particular I liked the Obi-Wan/Satine stuff. We've certainly seen plenty of playful banter from Obi-Wan over the years, but I can't recall ever seeing him flirt before this series; they're clearly doing a Han/Leia thing and I think it works pretty well. We also really haven't seen much of Obi-Wan as a solo act in this series; he's usually paired off with Anakin, and if not Anakin, some other Jedi. I think this episode is a solid template for what the forthcoming Obi-Wan TV series could be like.

The trouble with the idea of an Obi-Wan TV series set between Episodes 3 and 4 is that he's supposed to just be in hiding on Tatooine for pretty much that entire time, so they're pretty much going to have to pull an Arrow and say "nah Oliver wasn't really trapped on an island for 5 years, he actually went to China and Russia and back home to Starling City on at least one occasion without anybody seeing him, and then at the end he went back to the island and put on a wig so it looked like he'd been there the whole time." But that obvious problem aside, there are lots of fun stories you can tell where Obi-Wan travels the galaxy trying to keep a low profile. (Or not. Maybe the reason they never bother to look for him on the planet where he and Darth Vader first met is that he keeps popping up everywhere else.)

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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:47 am

Hondo's arc in Rebels is inexplicable enough just within the context of Rebels -- by the end of the series he's written as some kind of lovable rogue who, after all's said and done, has Ezra's back and is willing to stand with him against the Empire to liberate Not-Tatooine. None of which is remotely consistent with his characterization earlier in the series, where he repeatedly double-crosses everybody for money and leaves them for dead.

But now I'm watching his earlier appearances in Clone Wars and it's even more inexplicable. In his first appearance, he drugs Obi-Wan and Anakin* and holds them for ransom; in his second appearance, dude is straight-up the bad guy in Seven Samurai.

Kallus -- despite being named "Kallus" -- gets an arc; he gets an episode where you see why he'd renounce his loyalty to the Empire and side with the Rebellion. If Hondo ever gets anything like that, I don't remember it. He just shows up near the end and everyone acts like he's Han Solo coming back to help Luke at the end of the first movie.

I'm not saying you can't do a redemption arc about a character who's as big a bastard as Hondo is (Star Wars has, obviously, done redemption storylines about bigger bastards than him), I'm just saying Rebels doesn't do it. He kind of takes a shine to Ezra over the course of their encounters, but that really doesn't remotely explain his face turn. It's not so much an arc as a sudden vertical line.

* sort of; there's this weird bit of discontinuity where at the end of the episode they pointedly don't drink the beverages Hondo gave them, they switch drinks with the people sitting next to them and then watch them fall down, but then the next episode resumes as if they did drink them

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Thad
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:57 am

...aw shit, there's an entire spinoff novel devoted to explaining the whole story of how Hondo became a good guy, isn't there. Or if there isn't, there's gonna be.

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Mongrel
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Mongrel » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:08 pm

I just always kind of took it as him being more batshit insane than actually evil.
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Thad
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Re: Star Wars

Postby Thad » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:55 pm

Maybe as far as Rebels, but I'd say his characterization in Clone Wars, where he murders farmers to steal their crops, tips over into "actually evil".

(Or at least plans to murder farmers to steal their crops. I'm not clear on what the actual bodycount is at the end. I think one of the bounty hunters defending the village ends up dead; not sure how the farmers make out.)

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