Shin Megami Threadsei

[Friday]

Thad, first you'll need to click "Post Reply."

Then, click on the empty section. You may post your reasons there. Be sure to be thorough. Include the post about Sephiroth. The keyboard may be manipulated by striking the keys lightly with your fingers. Think back to Mario Teaches Typing.

Then, head to your profile, and click your administrator powers. Select yyler's account, and then click "temp ban."

Then leave for several days. Guild will make a thread where he threatens to quit unless yyler is unbanned, which is happening automatically in like 36 hours anyway. We all know he is full of shit.

[Thad]

Yes, like that, except I have 8 party members and every single one of them has to explain it separately.

[Brantly B.]

I think this is the single most effective self-justification I have now for never giving this series a single minute of my time.

[Thad]

Fair enough!

I mean I am still playing it. I like it a lot. But it is needlessly verbose, and this is me talking. My switch example is not an exaggeration; if anything, I underplayed just how much time everybody spent calling attention to the switch as I approached it, describing how to use the switch, reacting to the thing that happened when I threw the switch, and then making suggestions about what I should do if I see any more switches.

There is a fast-forward button. I find myself getting quicker and quicker on the draw with it the farther I get in the game.

[Thad]

They also explain what a save point is every. fucking. time, but then, that's a JRPG tradition that goes back at least as far as Final Fantasy 4.

[Esperath]

Did you know that if you use this save point, you'll be filled with Determination?

Determination, what's that?

Nanomachines, son.

[Thad]

You know, as the game goes on it feels like the palace design stops fitting the theme and starts being built around what makes the most interesting setpiece.

The first few palaces -- castle, art museum, bank, tomb -- all make sense; they work as reflections of their respective targets' subconscious. But then you get to the space station, and...that kind of doesn't fit Okumura at all? I mean, I get they're going for an Elon Musk thing, but Okumura doesn't act like Musk in the slightest. Musk is a weirdo with a fixation on science fiction. We don't get any of that from Okumura except that his business has "Big Bang" in the name. The few scenes we see with him in the real world, he's a traditional Japanese businessman archetype. He's uptight; there's nothing whimsical about him at all, no indication that the inside of his brain looks like a '50s sci-fi movie. The killer automated factory grinding workers into paste, sure, that part makes sense, but if they wanted his stage to be a space station they really should have made him act like more of an impulsive dreamer like Musk.

And then you're on to the casino, and...what? There's absolutely nothing about ---Sae---'s depiction up to this point to lead me to believe that the inside of their head is anything like a casino. The stage is a casino because they wanted to open the game with a casino heist.

The most bonkers palaces are the ones inside the heads of the most staid, uptight characters. And that could be something interesting to explore, the idea that people who tightly control themselves are keeping some wild fantasies in check, but (so far, at least) the game hasn't played with that idea at all except maybe briefly in a Mementos quest or two.

And y'know, there's nothing wrong with starting at "What would be an exciting scenario to play?" and working backwards to justify it. It's a video game. I want it to be fun and enjoyable. Making levels boring because they represent the unconscious mind of characters who are boring would be a terrible decision. But y'know, once you've decided on space station and casino as your settings, you should at least handle your characterizations so that they feel like they fit. Make Okumura an eccentric who rambles about weird shit in public, like Musk. Give us some indication that Sae is cynical about the criminal justice system and sees it as a rigged game of chance. Or at least, since your interactions with her are based primarily around an interrogation, place your emphasis on casino games like poker that have some element of psychology and strategy to them, instead of just games of pure chance like dice and slots. (At least, as far as I've gotten. Haven't finished the casino palace yet.)

And y'know, maybe something comes later that makes this all fit better. But since this is a game that really doesn't do subtext, I kind of doubt it.

[pacobird]

And then you're on to the casino, and...what? There's absolutely nothing about ---Sae---'s depiction up to this point to lead me to believe that the inside of their head is anything like a casino. The stage is a casino because they wanted to open the game with a casino heist.

The house always wins, which works as a metaphor for a prosecutor in a criminal justice system that has like what, a 98% conviction rate? Does anybody think that Japanese cops are just that good, or that Japanese defense attorneys are just that terrible?* We don't see her explicitly challenge the status quo but I do think the game gives us all we need to come to that conclusion so far in the game - she's clearly meant to be sympathetic even as an adversary - and that a Japanese audience in particular would pick up on it same as we would in a story about, say, racism in the American criminal justice system without a prosecutor saying, "gosh, this criminal justice system sure is racist."

Also especially applicable in a story where the protagonist begins having been falsely accused and wrongly convicted.


*one conspiracy theory I definitely believe with no evidence whatsoever is Aokigahara is a place you go to make your murder look like a suicide and be sure the cops will look the other way

[Thad]

Right, I got that. But if that's something she's proud of, that doesn't seem consistent with her character (she seems like she's at least trying to do the right thing), and if it's something she has doubts about, that's not consistent with her swaggering shadow, who seems perfectly happy with the house she's running.

Course, I've also got certain assumptions about the framing device and what it's leading up to, so there's still time to stick the landing.

[pacobird]

Right, I got that. But if that's something she's proud of, that doesn't seem consistent with her character (she seems like she's at least trying to do the right thing), and if it's something she has doubts about, that's not consistent with her swaggering shadow, who seems perfectly happy with the house she's running.

That's fair, yeah. I read it as her cynically accepting the status quo despite understanding what it's all about, but that's probably just me rationalizing a story I was at that point already invested in.

[Thad]

It also works as a metaphor for sexism in the workplace and how hard she's worked just to be set up to fail, but again, I don't think it quite fits with how happy and in-control her shadow seems.

[Friday]

The house always wins, which works as a metaphor for a prosecutor in a criminal justice system that has like what, a 98% conviction rate?

Wow, didn't know the Japanese were actually the Cardassians.

[pacobird]

Phoenix Wright is a legitimately biting satire of the Japanese legal system

[Mongrel]

The house always wins, which works as a metaphor for a prosecutor in a criminal justice system that has like what, a 98% conviction rate?

Wow, didn't know the Japanese were actually the Cardassians.

Yeah the Japanese "justice" system is actually a complete joke.

[Thad]

Yeah, and TBF the game points that out, including the 98% conviction rate, right around the time you make it to the casino.

I still don't think it works so great as a representation of that particular character's psyche, though. It could, with a little more finessing. Or possibly a plot twist I'm anticipating.

[Thad]

Okay, finished the casino and the framing device and I think I've got a clearer idea what the problem was:

There's not a significant enough change in Sae's characterization before and after her change of heart.

Now, there are a few good reasons for that. Foremost is, she has to come into that interrogation like a hardass and slowly become convinced that Joker's doing the right thing, because otherwise there's no arc, no drama, to the framing sequence.

Also, the writers didn't want to tip their hand -- you're not supposed to know at first that Sae was one of the Phantom Thieves' targets, and once you *do* know that she was the target, you're supposed to believe that the heist failed and they were unable to change her heart.

And a third reason is that Sae's not as straight-up evil to begin with as most of the other targets. She doesn't have as far to go once her heart is changed. Notably, Futaba is similar; she doesn't do a complete 180 after you steal her heart, it's more of a gradual change, unlike the villains who experience major changes to their personalities and behavior. So I think the idea here is that, like Futaba, the change in Sae is smaller and subtler than in some of the other targets.

Mostly the impression I get of her is "hardass/workaholic", not so much "dirty cop". I think the game could have spent more time showing that she's crooked, maybe have her falsifying evidence or the like.

(There's that scene where she accuses Sojiro of child abuse that never really goes anywhere. I'd say they could have built on that, had her falsify evidence against him, because what better justification for violating someone's due process than "I have to save that little girl"? But the problem with that is, "man in a position of power over others is accused of abuse, but he's actually innocent and it's a politically-motivated character assassination" is a really fraught narrative and on balance I'm glad they dropped that thread instead of pursuing it.)

I'd also say that Sae's shadow feels more like something out of Persona 4 than 5. For the most part, the shadows in 5 are flattering; in most cases they're awful, but they're the sort of vision you could see the target being proud of that image of themselves. In Persona 4, that's not the case; the shadows represent aspects of the characters' selves that they're ashamed of. (Not for nothin', this is because in 4 you're mostly facing shadows of good guys, and in 5 it's mostly bad guys -- Futaba and Sae are the exceptions.)

Anyway, cruising along near the original endgame now, tying up loose ends, maxed out a few more relationships, back in Mementos for what's probably the last time before the endgame, and so on. Not sure what the third semester even is or how it works, whether I'll be able to continue building confidant relationships with anyone I haven't maxed out yet, etc. Guess I'll see soon enough.

[Destynova]

You know, as the game goes on it feels like the palace design stops fitting the theme and starts being built around what makes the most interesting setpiece.

The first few palaces -- castle, art museum, bank, tomb -- all make sense; they work as reflections of their respective targets' subconscious. But then you get to the space station, and...that kind of doesn't fit Okumura at all? I mean, I get they're going for an Elon Musk thing, but Okumura doesn't act like Musk in the slightest. Musk is a weirdo with a fixation on science fiction. We don't get any of that from Okumura except that his business has "Big Bang" in the name. The few scenes we see with him in the real world, he's a traditional Japanese businessman archetype. He's uptight; there's nothing whimsical about him at all, no indication that the inside of his brain looks like a '50s sci-fi movie. The killer automated factory grinding workers into paste, sure, that part makes sense, but if they wanted his stage to be a space station they really should have made him act like more of an impulsive dreamer like Musk.

And then you're on to the casino, and...what? There's absolutely nothing about ---Sae---'s depiction up to this point to lead me to believe that the inside of their head is anything like a casino. The stage is a casino because they wanted to open the game with a casino heist.

The most bonkers palaces are the ones inside the heads of the most staid, uptight characters. And that could be something interesting to explore, the idea that people who tightly control themselves are keeping some wild fantasies in check, but (so far, at least) the game hasn't played with that idea at all except maybe briefly in a Mementos quest or two.

And y'know, there's nothing wrong with starting at "What would be an exciting scenario to play?" and working backwards to justify it. It's a video game. I want it to be fun and enjoyable. Making levels boring because they represent the unconscious mind of characters who are boring would be a terrible decision. But y'know, once you've decided on space station and casino as your settings, you should at least handle your characterizations so that they feel like they fit. Make Okumura an eccentric who rambles about weird shit in public, like Musk. Give us some indication that Sae is cynical about the criminal justice system and sees it as a rigged game of chance. Or at least, since your interactions with her are based primarily around an interrogation, place your emphasis on casino games like poker that have some element of psychology and strategy to them, instead of just games of pure chance like dice and slots. (At least, as far as I've gotten. Haven't finished the casino palace yet.)

And y'know, maybe something comes later that makes this all fit better. But since this is a game that really doesn't do subtext, I kind of doubt it.

Yea. Plus the whole heist theme with characters going off in different directions to play their part. Which brings up a tenseness about being alone and caught by 3 Wheel Angels. After the Bank, things just stopped being about a gang of thieves pulling a heist.

[Thad]

http://www.personaproblems.com/

A professional translator's take on the not-perfect localization of Persona 5. While the bits about why it's subpar are listed, that's not the main reason I found it interesting. While some errors in P5 are easy to spot casually, it is still pretty easy to consume. Though it makes good points about why that isn't and shouldn't be acceptable for a work as notable as P5, I'm pretty easygoing.
I thought it was interesting for a professional's take on translation in general, and the in depth look at methodology and ideals that he lays out.

Consider—how would readers react if George R. R. Martin released his next book and every third sentence was awkward, with every fifth sentence containing an objective error?

I mean I'm pretty sure the overwhelming reaction would be "holy shit, he actually finished it."

[Friday]

and then immediate complaining that the next book wasn't out.

[Niku]

uh wow something that personal is not up to the fans to decide i don’t care how much of an “open secret” it is