Rooty-tooty point and shootys

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Brentai
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Brentai » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:11 pm

The thing about Friday's chart is that if you 100% eliminated all the gun murders we'd STILL be ahead of nearly everybody else.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:22 pm

Incidentally, that UK number for homicides is blatantly incorrect. The UK does have a low homicide rate, but the 2010 number was 1.7 per 100,000, not 0.5.

Those charts are all sorts of weird (I already mentioned they're quite dated now). I mean... I expect they're still broadly correct, in spite of the errors, and Friday's point is valid regardless, but having charts full of errors is detracting as hell for anyone trying to use those in a serious debate. In a scenario where Friday (or whoever) were presenting those to a more skeptical audience when talking about gun control they'd end up getting all kind of bullshit replies (I mean, beyond just the ordinary kneejerk hostility from gun nuts).
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby mharr » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:43 pm

Yeah, while our firearms crime rates are low they're not literally zero, I think only Japan makes that claim. The UK has no casual handgun ownership but farms and groundskeepers have hunting rifles much like anywhere else and most rural towns have a weapon shop.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:57 pm

mharr wrote:Yeah, while our firearms crime rates are low they're not literally zero, I think only Japan makes that claim. The UK has no casual handgun ownership but farms and groundskeepers have hunting rifles much like anywhere else and most rural towns have a weapon shop.

obvious clip to post

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Bal
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Bal » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:15 pm

As Friday pointed out, mass shootings represent an absolutely tiny fraction of gun deaths in the US, as salacious as they are. If you really want to put a dent in gun violence, end the war on drugs, and then if that's not enough for you I would suggest extremely robust programs to prevent suicides. I specifically don't own a gun because, due to my depression, having an off switch in the house is dangerous if I fall in to a particularly dark mood all of a sudden, which is what happens to many, many people.

I can't remember who said it up the thread, that if you want a new ban just arm some black people, which is funny because that's also why we had the first ban.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Friday » Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:57 pm

Yeah honestly I'm like only 50% joking when I say that the fastest way to effective gun control is just

1. remove all gun laws

2. get a bunch of black dudes to walk fully armed with AR-15s and pistols down every main street in every major city in America

3. problem over, i guess now we can tackle climate change

4. uh

5. remove all environmental laws

6. black industrialists start making a ton of money
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Thad » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:52 pm

Friday wrote:Sigh. What the fuck is an assault weapon?

Do you mean an Assault Rifle? ARs? Okay, you do.

I wish lefties would learn actual gun terminology so they didn't look like fucking idiots to the people who own guns, further cementing in their minds that they are fucking idiots who don't know anything about guns.

I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand, if we're talking about actual concrete solutions to gun violence, it's important to understand what sort of ban you're actually describing, what its implications are, and whether the thing you're proposing will actually, you know, do anything.

On the other hand, when someone on the Internet deploys "lol you don't know the difference between a clip and a magazine" as a burn, it's very nearly always irrelevant semantic nitpicking. (Game recognizes game.) Understanding specific nomenclature is important in the drafting of laws; it's not important in recognizing that people are running around with equipment that allows them to kill large numbers of human beings in short spans of time and that maybe they shouldn't be. That's a valid observation even if somebody says "weapon" instead of "rifle".

Friday wrote:All actual discussion of effective gun control begins and ends with handguns.


I think there's a good argument to be made that spree shootings with AR-15s, while responsible for far fewer fatalities than handguns, are an easier place to start the conversation and get people onboard.

Shifting the Overton window is a slow and laborious process, and I don't expect any serious gun control measures to pass in the next, oh, twenty years. But it's one of those things where I see a generational shift in perspective, and where if we can hang on long enough that we still have a functioning democracy in a couple of decades, there's an opening for change.

And of course the rapid decline of the NRA isn't exactly helping the gun lobby either.

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Brentai
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Brentai » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:58 pm

On the other hand, when someone on the Internet deploys "lol you don't know the difference between a clip and a magazine" as a burn, it's very nearly always irrelevant semantic nitpicking.


They also absolutely say "clip" in any context other than irritating liberals.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Thad » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:12 pm

Next you'll be telling me
Yoji wrote:This week's Wonkette episode on deleted comments had a guy yelling, among other things, that "assault weapons" don't exist blah blah blah.

*knocks over a stack of magazines*
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:00 pm

TBF, the only publisher in all of those magazines which is using "Assault Weapon" is "Gun Digest" (I have absolutely no idea how popular or influential that one is). G&A and whoever that author is are referring more specifically to assault pistols and assault rifles, respectively.

Doesn't really invalidate the point you and Brent are making though, which is that reactionaries are happy to be lazy and wrong with fiddly nomenclature (i.e. the way language normally works) when they're not weaponizing semantic terms to try and own the libs.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 am

Thad wrote:
Friday wrote:Sigh. What the fuck is an assault weapon?

Do you mean an Assault Rifle? ARs? Okay, you do.

I wish lefties would learn actual gun terminology so they didn't look like fucking idiots to the people who own guns, further cementing in their minds that they are fucking idiots who don't know anything about guns.

I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand, if we're talking about actual concrete solutions to gun violence, it's important to understand what sort of ban you're actually describing, what its implications are, and whether the thing you're proposing will actually, you know, do anything.

On the other hand, when someone on the Internet deploys "lol you don't know the difference between a clip and a magazine" as a burn, it's very nearly always irrelevant semantic nitpicking. (Game recognizes game.) Understanding specific nomenclature is important in the drafting of laws; it's not important in recognizing that people are running around with equipment that allows them to kill large numbers of human beings in short spans of time and that maybe they shouldn't be. That's a valid observation even if somebody says "weapon" instead of "rifle".

The semantic hairsplitting in this case was intentionally chosen to be confusing by politicians who had already made Assault Rifles federally illegal eight years earlier in 1986 (except ones already owned by civilians, but nobody's spending $10,000+ and waiting six+ months on paperwork to legally buy a real M16 to commit crimes with it.) Further, "assault weapons" doesn't refer to anything that particularly matters as far as how deadly the firearm is; if I recall correctly a trauma surgeon wrote an opinion that spree shootings would likely be deadlier if shooters used shotguns instead, and a vast majority of shotguns already don't count as Assault Weapons. This is my Non-Assault AR-15 which fires the same bullets, uses the same magazines, and reloads almost as easily as any other AR-15, but because I don't have spooky features like a pistol grip or the lug for a bayonet to lock onto it's entirely legal under New York's assault weapon ban which is one of the strictest in the country. Zero difference in lethal potential, except for if I ran out of ammo and needed to start stabbing people, in which case I couldn't because I can't attach a bayonet to it. In that case, I would use my Chinese military rifle from the 1950s, which isn't an Assault Weapon either despite the built-in bayonet and being a literal weapon of war that likely saw military use in both China and Albania (or somewhere else in eastern Europe during the Cold War) because it doesn't use detachable magazines. (Instead you can reasonably quickly load it via clips, but there's a reason why clips went out of fashion by the end of World War 2 in favor of magazines.)

Thad wrote:
Friday wrote:All actual discussion of effective gun control begins and ends with handguns.


I think there's a good argument to be made that spree shootings with AR-15s, while responsible for far fewer fatalities than handguns, are an easier place to start the conversation and get people onboard.

Shifting the Overton window is a slow and laborious process, and I don't expect any serious gun control measures to pass in the next, oh, twenty years. But it's one of those things where I see a generational shift in perspective, and where if we can hang on long enough that we still have a functioning democracy in a couple of decades, there's an opening for change.

And of course the rapid decline of the NRA isn't exactly helping the gun lobby either.

Spree shootings happen with AR-15s for the same reason that generic sedans get the most speeding tickets: the AR-15 platform is the most commonly owned firearm in the US. I personally know only one gun owner who doesn't own some form of AR-15, and that's because my best friend's dad is an Elmer Fudd type whose gun collection is, as far as I'm aware, one German rifle from WW2 that a relative of his picked up off someone's dead body during the war and otherwise exclusively hunting rifles/shotguns.

tl;dr the semantic hairsplitting is between "an actual full-auto M-16, which is already illegal" and a mostly-meaningless scare tactic that doesn't significantly impact lethality.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:12 am



Literally the first time I've ever seen an AR-15 which doesn't look like crap because it's trying to be an M16, but instead ends up looking like a toy for angry kids (which those ones are, I guess).

Non-coincidentally, this is also the first time I've ever seen an AR-15 with wood components.

How'd you come by the Chinese rifle? Seems like that would be a comparatively cheap WWII/mid-20th century historical infantry rifle if you wanted something from that era?
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:07 am

Mongrel wrote:


Literally the first time I've ever seen an AR-15 which doesn't look like crap because it's trying to be an M16, but instead ends up looking like a toy for angry kids (which those ones are, I guess).

Non-coincidentally, this is also the first time I've ever seen an AR-15 with wood components.

Don't worry, I also have a version you'd probably hate that looks like an M16 if they used wood instead of plastic. It's not an Assault Weapon because the magazine isn't detachable without tools and it has a mechanism where you can do a fiddly slow reload through a window in the side. (Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.)

Mongrel wrote:How'd you come by the Chinese rifle? Seems like that would be a comparatively cheap WWII/mid-20th century historical infantry rifle if you wanted something from that era?

Walked into a gun store in 2014 that specifically has some focus on old military firearms, saw it on the rack, it looked intriguing and it was (at least at the time, when the market had just gotten a huge jump in supply) relatively cheap at around $400; cheapest actual-WW2 infantry rifle being a Russian Mosin, which were selling for ~$200-250 for the most common model at the time. This was part of a big batch that got imported around 2012-2014, with the importers specifically selecting for rifles that were at least 50 years old (qualifying for Curio and Relic status, which makes importing/selling easier) and due to legal restrictions on importing military rifles from China it had to have been outside of China for at least 5 years. The importers refused to specify any details seemingly out of fear of losing exclusivity with their supplier, but there's various evidence that they'd been in Albania: Other rifles from the same batch had Albanian locations and important dates scratched into the wooden stocks, China was Albania's only major ally after the Sino-Soviet Split, and a different importer who was trying to import Russian rifles got information from a contact at the ATF that these Chinese rifles were allowed to be imported because they had demonstrably been in Albania since the 60s. (The Russian rifles were a non-starter because the trade agreement terms are different; you can't import military rifles from China but you can import their guns from other countries, whereas other than a specified list of allowed guns - including the Mosin - you aren't allowed to import ANY Soviet-made military guns since 1994 whether or not they're located in the former Soviet Union's territory.)

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Thad » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:00 pm

Grath wrote:Spree shootings happen with AR-15s for the same reason that generic sedans get the most speeding tickets:

Oh good, a guns/cars analogy.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Upthorn » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:19 pm

I think the point Grath makes is pretty valid. The most commonly owned form of gun is also the form of gun most commonly used in high profile gun crimes. It's not because it's the most effective form of weapon for that purpose, but because it's the most popular form of weapon for any purpose.

Targeting it, specifically, for regulation may result in a safer society, or it may result in a different form of weapon becoming popular instead. And since there isn't any functional reason to regulate it over other forms of weapon, we should work on regulations that will also apply to whatever other form of weapon would become popular as a replacement in the case that we specifically regulate only the most currently-popular one.
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:53 pm

Grath wrote:Walked into a gun store in 2014 that specifically has some focus on old military firearms, saw it on the rack, it looked intriguing and it was (at least at the time, when the market had just gotten a huge jump in supply) relatively cheap at around $400; cheapest actual-WW2 infantry rifle being a Russian Mosin, which were selling for ~$200-250 for the most common model at the time. This was part of a big batch that got imported around 2012-2014, with the importers specifically selecting for rifles that were at least 50 years old (qualifying for Curio and Relic status, which makes importing/selling easier) and due to legal restrictions on importing military rifles from China it had to have been outside of China for at least 5 years. The importers refused to specify any details seemingly out of fear of losing exclusivity with their supplier, but there's various evidence that they'd been in Albania: Other rifles from the same batch had Albanian locations and important dates scratched into the wooden stocks, China was Albania's only major ally after the Sino-Soviet Split, and a different importer who was trying to import Russian rifles got information from a contact at the ATF that these Chinese rifles were allowed to be imported because they had demonstrably been in Albania since the 60s. (The Russian rifles were a non-starter because the trade agreement terms are different; you can't import military rifles from China but you can import their guns from other countries, whereas other than a specified list of allowed guns - including the Mosin - you aren't allowed to import ANY Soviet-made military guns since 1994 whether or not they're located in the former Soviet Union's territory.)


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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:24 pm

Thad wrote:
Grath wrote:Spree shootings happen with AR-15s for the same reason that generic sedans get the most speeding tickets:

Oh good, a guns/cars analogy.

I figured I'd try something that you might actually be familiar with, given your presented arguments so far.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:15 pm

By the way, is "Curio and Relic" a combined term, or are they two separate terms with distinct and different legal meanings?
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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Grath » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:45 pm

Mongrel wrote:By the way, is "Curio and Relic" a combined term, or are they two separate terms with distinct and different legal meanings?

Curio & Relic is a combined term, which means guns in original* configuration that are 50+ years old, guns that a museum that exhibits firearms would be interested in, or guns that derive monetary value from being novel/rare/bizarre or from association with history**.

* Some gray area exceptions exist for military guns that were modified by the military that used them, and if the modification is 50+ years old I believe that's also curio and relic.
** This category requires proof that similar guns are either unavailable except as collector's items, or that the value of similar guns is substantially less.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 generally prohibited the importing of firearms, except for people/businesses with certain Federal Firearms Licenses which can (with ATF approval) import "sporting" firearms or Curio and Relic military firearms; additionally, the Type 3 Federal Firearms License is "licensed collector of Curio and Relic firearms" rather than being a gun dealer, manufacturer, or importer; you have to apply with the ATF and notify your local law enforcement agency to become a licensed collector, and the ATF does a real background check on you at that time, but then you have three years where you can directly buy curio and relic firearms from dealers without a background check and (allegedly) occasionally import individual curio and relic firearms for your own collection.

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Re: Rooty-tooty point and shootys

Postby Mongrel » Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:19 am

Keen. The legislation here in Canada is of course somewhat more restrictive - probably not a whole lot more than New York, except when it comes to handguns, which I know we restrict much more severely than any US state (though they're not outright banned). But our firearm regs also have provisions for antique guns (especially rifles and anything which pre-dates them - muskets, etc.).

The only problem is that the factor for getting the historical designation (forget the exact term) is a permanently fixed dating scheme where any weapon manufactured prior to 189? is allowed, but anything after that has modern regulations applied.

IIRC, that meant that broomhandle Mausers were like, 2 years offside, so technically count as a modern handgun, making them impossible to import or own in any practical sense. That basically put an end to my already half-hearted interest in actually collecting a couple of real firearms (not that I collect fake ones either), like the Martini-Henry rifle, or a Brown Bess replica.

Basically a vast amount of effort - and continuous work to stay kosher - for something you can't do much of anything with. So, uh, the law works!
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